Why was the muslim ok restaurant topic locked?

[TampereOwl]

Well, it seems that in time honoured tradition, I will have to do the usual and proclaim that I AM NOT A RACIST. Neither am I anti-muslim or anti-jewish or anti anybody. What I am against practices which do not fit in with general modern European culture being forced on Europe by people who are CHOOSING to come here. Regarding kosher, I'm certainly not anti-semetic, and while the rule about never feeding an animal another animal is excellent, I still find the method of killing the animal cruel. Europe has had it's fair share of dodgy practices (witch-burnings, inquisitions etc.) but we have moved on.

You started talking about terrorism, not slaughter practices. I don't see you doing the same whenever someone mentions Molly Malones.

[ajdias]

I would really like to know why that topic was locked. As far as I know, Finland is a democracy and has free speech,

This is not Finland and certainly not a democracy. This is finlandforum.org a website that has admins and moderators and who decide what is acceptable or not, and who might incur in liabilities if users cross the lines. As a admin of several websites, one of which very much like this one, this is a prerrogative I do not give away, and would probably be foolish to do so.

Does not mean that admins do not have to answer to, or hear criticism (like this thread is an example) but this is a distinction worth making.

[inkku]

...yet most Europeans have no qualms about eating and drinking dariy products in large quantites In order for cows to produce milk it is common practice to remove young calves from their mothers and rear them on milk substitues or even slaughter them at a very young age.

The dairy industry in the Western world is hardly a model of ethical farming.

I didn't know that . How about organic dairy, does it prohibit that practice?

How can organic change the fact that you have the calves milk instead of the calf. All organic mean is the animal doesnt get unnecessary medication ie routine antibiotics, gets hay , silage or put on pasture with no unapproved chemicals and gets I think 4 months a year to roam about outside.

I had an impression that organic carried some connotations of ethical as well (eg chickens roaming free ).

[lionel]

Yes, much better for animals to freeze outdoors. Cow fur in these southern breeds is not enough to keep them warm outdoors during Finnish winter. They lack sufficiently thick and layered fur. Not to mention the udders which hang nicely on snow.
Have YOU ever tried what frozen snow does to skin?

Oh, but that is something you never bothered to figure out isn't it Cory?
Farmers would not do it if there was no need. Because it is expensive to build shelters for cattle. Warmer the shelter, higher the cost.

Nor do you let else facts remain in the way of spewing nonsense with sensationalist rubbish.

In Finland, animals are slaughtered around age of 8 months at which point they weight around 150kg. Those are NOT cuddly little calves anymore.

Do you have anything to do with farming at all ??? Cows are perfectly capable of going outside in winter if they have become acclimitized to it slowly ie get used to it over a period of time. Fair enough if the udder is dragging in the snow it might get cold but it would have an utare liivi on if it was this big The udder doesnt freeze as if you have ever seen a dairy cows udder it has many veins full of hot blood rushing about keeping it warm. The reason cows are kept tied up is that its traditional and easier than having cows wandering about in a pihatto. Also wondering what sort of cows you have experience with ? Our calves when born weigh around 65kgs and at 8 months definitly weigh slightly more than 150kgs try closer to 400kgs. If you have a 150kg calf at 8 months youve definitly got a problem.

[lionel]

I didn't know that . How about organic dairy, does it prohibit that practice?

How can organic change the fact that you have the calves milk instead of the calf. All organic mean is the animal doesnt get unnecessary medication ie routine antibiotics, gets hay , silage or put on pasture with no unapproved chemicals and gets I think 4 months a year to roam about outside.
[/quote]

I had an impression that organic carried some connotations of ethical as well (eg chickens roaming free ).[/quote]

It does but usually in lots of cases this is defined by having access to the outdoors so a little catflap sized door leading to a small yard is tecnically "access to the outdoors", not much good when you have hundreds of chickens being housed as most wont even notice the door. With cows and other animals they have introduced a hyvinvointi/well being ? bonus subsidy if your animals have full time access to clean wate, regular feeding schedules etc but if you are farming you shouldnt really need someone to tell or pay you to provide decent conditions for your animals. Many organic farmers are ethical and care about what organic means but some just sign up to get the extra benefits and dont really care about it as long as they meet the minimum requirements.

[littlefrank]

Ironic how an Australian is harping on about immigrants not integrating with the ‘locals’ when the first immigrants (mainly British) landed in Australia they set about slaughtering the native inhabitants. This is not to say all immigrants were involved in this slaughter, I know that people on this forum would not want to deal in stereotypes.

Also strange to see the right wingers on this forum suddenly becoming interested in women’s and animal rights, they usually dismiss me has a tree hugger when I mention these subjects, but I’m glad they’re finally decided to take these issues up and recommend that they read Peter Singer (Australian professor, I have nothing against the majority of Australians).

'Singer called Western-style meat production cruel, unhealthy and damaging to the ecology. He rejected the idea that the method was necessary to meet the population’s increasing demand, explaining that animals in factory farms have to eat food grown explicitly for them, and they burn up most of the food’s energy just to breathe and keep their bodies warm. That loss of total energy has been verified in multiple studies, and the November 2006 UN FAO Report states as much.'

I’ll also look forward to seeing them joining world wide protests against animal cruelty e.g. protesting about dog fighting, badger baiting and the production of pate de fois gras. There is a disturbing number of acts of animal cruelty in this country and elsewhere.

http://www.hs.fi/english/article/Police ... 5232235980

Has to why the thread was locked maybe you should read the ‘rules’ of the forum. This is after all an ‘international forum’ i.e. a multicultural forum, if you do not like this, there are other forums where I’m sure your views would be welcome.

This is going to be my only response in this thread, unless it’s still going on next week when my daughter goes back to her mother's.

[Tiwaz]

You're back from where ever you were. Such a ray of sunshine!

Well, since you insist on making stupid assumptions it tends to cloud my shine.

Oh chill out. I have my thinking-cap on.

No you don't.

I come from cattle ranch folk in Saskatchewan in the middle of the snowy wasteland. Cattle are let outside for a few hours per day in a smaller fenced in field with hay laid on the packed snow so that they are able to stretch for a bit.

And what breed you use there? Original Finnish cattle is capable of being in colder conditions as well, but their production rates are too low for them to be widely used as production animals.

Southern breeds tend to have serious issues with cold and frost.

And no, the male calves are slaughtered much younger than 8 months here. Born in March, truck comes in weeks if the barn is too full. Before the chains start rattling...this isn't a "one-country vs another-country" discussion on my side.. there are farmers in the frozen-wasteland of both countries who try to save money and since there are no laws about cows needing to be out for x-number of hours of course the smaller ranches aren't going to do anything that they're not obliged to do by law. Some are more humane than others and some have better resources than others.

Cory, sorry but you are again being stupid...

Do you think that dairy farmer will raise male calves as meat stock? Hmm?

He is trying to produce MILK. So raising barn half filled with male calves would be problematic for him. So clearly, male calves have to be taken elsewhere.

How would those calves go elsewhere... Shall magical fairy wish them to their new location? Or perhaps they still have to be hauled with truck!


My FIL is pig breeder. Notice, BREEDER. He has few adult animals, mainly one male and several females. He BREEDS little piglets, namely having male do the thing with females and result is litter of piglets.

He does NOT sell meat, he sells piglets. This infamous "truck" comes and takes the piglets away every once in a while, to someone RAISING pigs. Those who raise them do not necessarily, or even often, breed the pigs. They just raise them to size where they are taken to slaughter.

See the logic here regarding male calves and piglets?

Do you have anything to do with farming at all ??? Cows are perfectly capable of going outside in winter if they have become acclimitized to it slowly ie get used to it over a period of time. Fair enough if the udder is dragging in the snow it might get cold but it would have an utare liivi on if it was this big The udder doesnt freeze as if you have ever seen a dairy cows udder it has many veins full of hot blood rushing about keeping it warm. The reason cows are kept tied up is that its traditional and easier than having cows wandering about in a pihatto. Also wondering what sort of cows you have experience with ? Our calves when born weigh around 65kgs and at 8 months definitly weigh slightly more than 150kgs try closer to 400kgs. If you have a 150kg calf at 8 months youve definitly got a problem.

And you are planning to acclimitize the cows at which time? I am familiar enough with farming, old man was born on a farm which I now own (no, not functional only forestry anymore but we have lots of contact with neighbors who still have cattle).

It is a 24/7 job. Moving cows out for few hours then back in to get them used to outdoor conditions is going to be lots of extra work in system where usually there are little to no outside help.

As for udders, it is not about being cold. It is about frozen snow being bad for skin. When top layer of snow has frozen into solid, when it breaks it forms lots of sharp edges which scrape the skin.

As for calves, 150kg might be minimum weight for slaughter or net weight of resulting meat. Can't remember which.

[lionel]

You're back from where ever you were. Such a ray of sunshine!

Do you have anything to do with farming at all ??? Cows are perfectly capable of going outside in winter if they have become acclimitized to it slowly ie get used to it over a period of time. Fair enough if the udder is dragging in the snow it might get cold but it would have an utare liivi on if it was this big The udder doesnt freeze as if you have ever seen a dairy cows udder it has many veins full of hot blood rushing about keeping it warm. The reason cows are kept tied up is that its traditional and easier than having cows wandering about in a pihatto. Also wondering what sort of cows you have experience with ? Our calves when born weigh around 65kgs and at 8 months definitly weigh slightly more than 150kgs try closer to 400kgs. If you have a 150kg calf at 8 months youve definitly got a problem.

And you are planning to acclimitize the cows at which time? I am familiar enough with farming, old man was born on a farm which I now own (no, not functional only forestry anymore but we have lots of contact with neighbors who still have cattle).

It is a 24/7 job. Moving cows out for few hours then back in to get them used to outdoor conditions is going to be lots of extra work in system where usually there are little to no outside help.

As for udders, it is not about being cold. It is about frozen snow being bad for skin. When top layer of snow has frozen into solid, when it breaks it forms lots of sharp edges which scrape the skin.

As for calves, 150kg might be minimum weight for slaughter or net weight of resulting meat. Can't remember which.

Well acclimitizing them is not a special science very simple really just keep turning them out after milking in the morning and when they come in for afternoon milking keep them in until the next day. I understand what you mean about the snow freezing and getting sharp but if the animals are wondering about in a smallish yard or area the will trample it all flat. It is a bit more work but not that much if they are small like you say, its the bigger guys who have 50 or 60 cows tied up in a parsinavetta then you have problems. Many people if they have not much help with milking can also usually get a lomittaja who is more than happy to do extra work at €8.50 per hour.

[Tiwaz]

Well acclimitizing them is not a special science very simple really just keep turning them out after milking in the morning and when they come in for afternoon milking keep them in until the next day. I understand what you mean about the snow freezing and getting sharp but if the animals are wondering about in a smallish yard or area the will trample it all flat. It is a bit more work but not that much if they are small like you say, its the bigger guys who have 50 or 60 cows tied up in a parsinavetta then you have problems. Many people if they have not much help with milking can also usually get a lomittaja who is more than happy to do extra work at €8.50 per hour.

Little more work? It is extra work which farmer could live without. Have you figured out that guy who has few cows is essentially 1 person (perhaps spouse to make it two) operation?

That means they have to spend that time to keep the yard fenced up, move the animals in and out. And this on top of their daily chores which do not disappear when it snows. Many farmers are forced to take up extra jobs to help make ends meet. FIL for one keeps ski tracks and clears roads during winter.

And this is to keep ends meet. Getting lomittaja COSTS. How much experience you have on farm life hmm?
Reality today is that their income keeps getting smaller as the money they make from their products is not increasing, or not increasing as much as cost of everything else.

This leads to farmers progressively making less money with their job. And now they would have to add costs of spare hand to keep cows outside during winter.

It is so easy to say what farmers should do and how they could do it by shoveling money around. But where does farmer get that money? I know farmers very well, and many former farmers. Many have quit already, and nearly all are considering quitting.

Many might love what they do, but it also has to cover their costs. House, food, clothing... Not just farm expenses but expenses of living.