need help

[garoowood]

Palkka on neuvoteltavissa.

neuvoteltavissa looks like present participle passive with plural inessive case.
I am wondering the participle should be used as an adjective, so neuvoteltava palkka looks good for me meaning a salary that can be negotiated. Why there is plural inessive used here?

[Jukka Aho]

Palkka on neuvoteltavissa.
neuvoteltavissa looks like present participle passive with plural inessive case.
I am wondering the participle should be used as an adjective, so neuvoteltava palkka looks good for me meaning a salary that can be negotiated. Why there is plural inessive used here? :ohno:

The -VA participle, when used as a predicative or an attribute to a noun, implies an action that 1) needs to be done or 2) is possible to do (the referred thing allows it to be done.) The latter sense is perhaps stronger as an attribute, but in a predicative sentence such as...

Palkka on neuvoteltava.

...the primary sense you get is the first one: the salary needs to be negotiated; there’s no way around it.

Changing it to...

Palkka on neuvoteltavissa.

...softens the blow, and now it only implies a possibility. You have been given an offer but it is negotiable... should you want to.

It works the same way for these, too:

Matka on juostava.
(primarily:) “The distance needs to be run.”

Matka on juostavissa.
“The distance is runnable.”

Then again, juostava matka could mean either:

Tämä on vielä ihan juostava matka, jaksan kyllä hyvin. Ei huolta!
“This distance is quite runnable still [possible to run], I will manage. No worries!”

Juostava matka on 10 kilometriä.
“The distance-to-be-run is 10 kilometers.”

You could also say...

Tämä on vielä ihan juostavissa oleva matka, jaksan kyllä hyvin. Ei huolta!
(which means again:) “This distance is quite runnable still [possible to run], I will manage. No worries!”

...but juostavissa oleva matka makes it a bit heavy sentence to parse.

[mrjimsfc]

In other words, the salary is negotiable.

[garoowood]

It is the first time I see this kind of usage.
So can I understand like this:
neuvoteltava=to be negotiated
while changing to
neuvoteltavissa=negotiable

pestävä=to be washed
pestävissä=washable

maksettava=to be paid
maksettavissa=payable

And it works only in predictive sentences?

[Jukka Aho]

It is the first time I see this kind of usage.
So can I understand like this:
neuvoteltava=to be negotiated
while changing to
neuvoteltavissa=negotiable

pestävä=to be washed
pestävissä=washable

maksettava=to be paid
maksettavissa=payable

And it works only in predictive sentences?

Predicative, not predictive. At least in those.

Vaatteet on pestävä 40 asteessa. (at 40°C temperature, this is sort of like a binding guideline; an order about how you are to do it.)
(You could just as well say: Vaatteet pitää/tulee pestä...)

Mattosi on pestävissä heti: matonpesukone on nyt vapaana.
(You could just as well say: Mattosi voidaan pestä heti...)

Lasku on maksettava 15. päivään mennessä.
(You could just as well say: Lasku pitää/tulee maksaa...)

Lasku on maksettavissa vasta kun tililläni on rahaa, ei yhtään aiemmin!
(You could just as well say: Lasku voidaan maksaa vasta...)

[Rob A.]

It is the first time I see this kind of usage.
So can I understand like this:
neuvoteltava=to be negotiated
while changing to
neuvoteltavissa=negotiable...

I think the meaning of "neuvoteltava" in English could be:

a) "negotiable"
b) "can be negotiated."
c) "has to be negotiated"

...I can only assume that context must determine which "nuance" is expected...???..

And, parroting Jukka's post...."neuvoteltavissa" would be more like, "can be negotiable"....probably in the present tense but I'm not sure...

"Neuvoteltava", is the passive present participle, of the frequentative verb, "neuvotella".... the present active participle would be, "neuvoteleva" which, of course, would be inappropriate here..."Salary is negotiating."...

I think I'm right .... ???

[Jukka Aho]

I think the meaning of "neuvoteltava" in English could be:

a) "negotiable"
b) "can be negotiated."
c) "has to be negotiated"

Also d) “that which is / will be under negotiation”:

Neuvoteltava sopimus korvaa Euroopan yhteisön ja Kiinan välisen kauppasopimuksen vuodelta 1985, joka ei enää kata jatkuvasti laajenevaa yhteistyötä.

“The agreement under negotiation will replace...”
or “The agreement which will be taken under negotiation is going to replace...”

...I can only assume that context must determine which "nuance" is expected...???..

To a degree, I guess. (At least it’s easier to give an assessment about complete example sentences than individual words in isolation...)

And, parroting Jukka's post...."neuvoteltavissa" would be more like, "can be negotiable"....probably in the present tense but I'm not sure...

neuvoteltava palkka, if interpreted in the sense a), “negotiable”, would seem to imply that negotiability is somehow an inherent (naturally occurring) property of this particular instance (or class) of salary. That’s a bit weird idea and hence it probably isn’t usually interpreted that way. Instead, the default interpretation would be “the salary (currently) under negotiation”, or “the salary that will be taken under negotiation”.

neuvoteltavissa oleva palkka or palkka, joka on neuvoteltavissa means salary that is deemed negotiable by outside observers: “negotiability” is not an inherent (naturally occurring) property of the salary in question, permanently attached to it, but rather something that’s possible now, at this moment, in this particular situation, because people see it as negotiable.

"neuvoteleva" which, of course, would be inappropriate here..."Salary is negotiating."...:D

Correct, except it’s neuvotteleva.

[Rob A.]

....

"neuvoteleva" which, of course, would be inappropriate here..."Salary is negotiating."...

Correct, except it’s neuvotteleva.

OK...could you remind me what the rule is with doubled consonants...

I know it has something to do with the syllables...

neuvotteleva = neu.vot.tel.ev.a
neuvoteltava = neu.vo.tel.ta.va

I seem to remember reading something about this, but can't find it....I suppose it has something to do with the double consonant near the end of a word..or at a certain place in the word....???...

And there are words such as: ajatellessa/ajattelemassa....a.ja.tel.les.sa/a.jat.tel.em.as.sa....maybe there's a link...

[Jukka Aho]

OK...could you remind me what the rule is with doubled consonants...

Rules? You’re asking the wrong person... I don’t need no rules. ;)

I guess you can find what you’re looking for in here, somewhere:

• Consonant gradation in verbs
• Finnish Grammar - Consonant Gradation (Kimberli Mäkäräinen)
• Examples of consonant gradation in verbs of verb type 3 (Uusi kielemme)
• Verb types (Uusi kielemme)

[Rob A.]

....double post

[Rob A.]

....Finnish Grammar - Consonant Gradation (Kimberli Mäkäräinen)....

Thanks Jukka.... I found it right away in that link....

"Consonant gradation only affects them in the last syllable of the basic form of the word!"

....in other words, the stem....and so one has to remember to remove ALL of the suffixes when dealing with a verbal noun or adjective.....

[Jukka Aho]

"neuvoteleva" which, of course, would be inappropriate here..."Salary is negotiating."...:D

Correct, except it’s neuvotteleva.

Or if you want to express it in a way that hits even closer to home – removing any ambiguity – neuvotteleva palkka would translate as “salary that is of negotiating type” or, if context allows it, “salary that is currently negotiating”... whatever that is supposed to mean.

There’s an occupational title neuvotteleva virkamies. I have no idea what they actually do... except negotiate?

[garoowood]

Predicative, not predictive. At least in those.

Vaatteet on pestävä 40 asteessa. (at 40°C temperature, this is sort of like a binding guideline; an order about how you are to do it.)
(You could just as well say: Vaatteet pitää/tulee pestä...)

Mattosi on pestävissä heti: matonpesukone on nyt vapaana.
(You could just as well say: Mattosi voidaan pestä heti...)

Lasku on maksettava 15. päivään mennessä.
(You could just as well say: Lasku pitää/tulee maksaa...)

Lasku on maksettavissa vasta kun tililläni on rahaa, ei yhtään aiemmin!
(You could just as well say: Lasku voidaan maksaa vasta...)

And

a) "negotiable"
b) "can be negotiated."
c) "has to be negotiated"
d)“that which is / will be under negotiation”

So neuvoteltava, if used as an attribute in front of words such as"palkka", can actually have 4 meanings depends on the context; while, if used as a predicative, has the meaning of "has to be negotiated" only. neuvoteltavissa, when used as a predicative, has a softened meaning like "can be negotiated.".

Is that right?

[Jukka Aho]

So neuvoteltava, if used as an attribute in front of words such as"palkka", can actually have 4 meanings depends on the context; while, if used as a predicative, has the meaning of "has to be negotiated" only. neuvoteltavissa, when used as a predicative, has a softened meaning like "can be negotiated.".

Is that right?

Yes, I’d say so. Although with neuvoteltava palkka, specifically, I’d see the interpretations d) “that which is / will be under negotiation” and c) "that which has to be negotiated" as the most plausible ones, and the interpretations a) “negotiable” and b) “that which can be negotiated” as rather dubious and forced. But given a suitable context, some other participle-noun pairs may allow all interpretations.