small questions from the news

[Upphew]

Oh thats because its happening right now, you can feel it, the crowd is getting electrified... soittakaa Paranoid!

Finnish (festival) audience 101: there is always someone who wants to hear Paranoid.

[Rob A.]

.....

Hyvää vauhtia = rapidly, or more literally "(at a) good pace". The use of partitive is idiomatic (i think). I guess "hyvällä vauhdilla" would be more logical, but noone says it like that. Could someone come up with more thorough explanation + examples?

Hyvää vauhtia matkalla = well on its way, "at a good pace on the way". Actually the grammar sounds a bit dubious, considering the verb "on": "is rapidly on the way from...".

Sähköiseksi = into (being) electrical - This (imo) is the most logically transparent use of translative "-ksi". Unlike in the earlier case, in this sentence there's clearly something going from being something into something else - "matkalla uneliaasta sähköiseksi" = "on the way from drowsy to electrical". *

So the first part would go:
On Monday evening at half past eight, the atmosphere at the square of senate of Helsinki is well on its way from drowsy to electrical.

* An attempt at shedding light onto the essive-translative issue:
There's an obsolete case - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exessive_case - completing the "essive series". So there's a direct correspondence between:
essive "-na" - exessive "-nta" - translative "-ksi",
inessive "-ssa" - elative "-sta" - illative "--n",
adessive "-lla" - ablative "lta" - allative "-lle".

The three always correspond to ("in" - "from" - "to") in some sense. So essive = "in being / as", exessive = "from being", translative = "(in)to being".
In practice the exessive is replaced by elative "-sta". Otherwise the sentence might read "...matkalla uneliaanta sähköiseksi".

And why was the translative translated to "for" earlier?
The sentence read "...keinoja nuorten kuljettajien liikenneturvallisuuden parantamiseksi" - "...keinoja ... parantamiseksi" - "ways ... into being improvement". The meaning of "for" is similar but not exactly the same - more like "... to the benefit of improvement", which IMO makes more sense than the literal Finnish one, but translative is the closest available match.

It seems it is hard to translate literally from the basic meaning. hyvää vauhtiä means good speed, velocity. Well, if idiom is not the reason why partitive is used, then I really do not know why it is used so. But well on its way from looks much better than my own version
About this from...to, I thought matkalla uneliaasta sähköiseksi should be written like matkalla uneliaasta sähköiseen. The exessive "nta" is very new to me, but as you said, it is replaced by elative in practice; then can I just ignore it? How do I choose if I should use translative or illative in this "from..to" combination(when ajective is used in the sentence, I use translative?)?

Here's an English translation with a little more "electricity" in it...

"Monday evening at half past eight, the atmosphere at Helsinki's Senaatintori (...as this is a place name you might just as well leave it in Finnish....no one in the English-speaking world is going to know what "Senate Square" refers to... ) ... is well on the way from sleepy to electric."

"Half an hour later the stage would be captured by Canada's "Arcade Fire", one of the more popular and highly praised "indie" rock bands of recent years, whose first Finnish concert has been fervently anticipated. So much so that it recalls the Finnish rockfan "field trip" a few years ago to the band's Stockholm concert."

Not "literal", but I think it's close to how you would see it written in English. The sentence I had the most trouble with was the last one.....I think I've captured the sense properly....??...

As to the use of the exessive case....a few months ago we had a thread about that, but I'll be darned if I can find it.....maybe someone who is more adept at using the Forum's search engine can find it.... Anyway as I recall the exessive case is used a bit in some Finnish dialects and I believe in Karelian... It relates to the translative in the "orbik" explained....its traces can be found in a few words and fixed expressions in standard Finnish...it has the idea of the process of no longing being something... But I don't think people should confuse themselves by thinking they have to know what it is....

Here's a wikipedia link in Finnish which gives a few more details, including examples that might still be encountered..."kotonta", "opettajanta", "takanta"..... Probably best to learn these as "fixed" words.....the same logic that is typically applied to so-called "adverbial cases"... "so-called", because they don't meet linguistic tests to be a full cases...

[garoowood]

eikä häntä saatu elvytettyä.

And they were not able to revive her.

Miehistöä in partitive, why?

I guess the whole crew was not there.

I prefer a grammar analysis, sb help~

[silk]

As to the use of the exessive case....a few months ago we had a thread about that, but I'll be darned if I can find it..

Found it
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=44051&start=15

[Rob A.]

As to the use of the exessive case....a few months ago we had a thread about that, but I'll be darned if I can find it..

Found it
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=44051&start=15

Thanks...it looks like I spelt it wrong in the previous thread...

[Pursuivant]

Miehistöä in partitive, why?

I guess the whole crew was not there.

I prefer a grammar analysis, sb help

A compliment of crew is a partitionable whole. Its the same thing as with kakku, kakkua whole vs. part of.

[Rob A.]

....Her mother tried to rescue her at the beginning. Later there was a rescue helicopter Ilmari's team??? Miehistöä in partitive, why?

Good question....and I'm not sure I can give you an answer...

Myöhemmin paikalla oli pelastushelikopteri Ilmarin miehistöä.

Clearly this is a "text-book" example of a Finnish existential sentence....time-related adverb and location placed first...verb in the third person singular, and no object....pelastushelikopteri Ilmarin miehistöä is actually the subject of this sentence.

But I, too, am having a bit of trouble seeing why miehistöä has to have a partitive ending....though, intuitively, I think is EP is right... I think it has to do with the 'indeterminate" nature of the word, miehistöä="crew".... a group with an unknown number of members...at least "unknown" to most readers....

I found this rather dense link, a careful reading of which, I think, will get you the answer.... see the top of page 37.

[Edit: I see P. has posted just ahead of me...and is saying essentially the same thing with a much greater "economy of words"... ]

[Upphew]

Pilot, doctor, paramedic. Pilot flies, doctor and paramedic revive.

[garoowood]

pelastushelikopteri Ilmarin miehistöä

But what is the meaning of this? rescue helicopter team of Ilmari? Ilmari is the name of a place? Should it be Ilmarin pelastushelikopteri miehistöä?

eikä häntä saatu elvytettyä

so this is actually elvytettyä häntä eikä saatu? elvytettyä-a past passive participle in partitive acts as a premodifier to häntä is the subject; and eikä saatu is the verb.

ps. Rob A.: That link is really, as you said, dense but very useful. But it takes time to grasp the essence.
I think I am back again to the most critical part of Finnish--partitive which can be used as subject, object and predicative

[EP]

Ilmari is the name of a place

Ilmari is the name of the helicopter. Ilmari is a man´s name, sort of old fashioned. Rescue helicopter Ilmari´s crew.

[garoowood]

Kansainvälisen jalkapalloliiton puheenjohtaja Sepp Blatter pahoitteli viimein erotuomarivirheitä, mutta ei ottanut selvää kantaa, mitä vastaavien ongelmien välttämisesksi tullaaan tekemään.

The chairman of the international football union, Sepp Blatter, finally apologized about the referee's mistakes, but did not take a clear stance, what will be done to avoid similar problems.

I guess välttämisesksi should be välttämiseksi and tullaaan should be tullaan?

I have problem to figure out the grammar lying in the last part of the sentence.
vastaavien ongelmien välttämiseksi is clear which means to the avoidance of similar questions; but mitä tullaan tekemään. is somehow vague to me in grammar sense. mitä--what; tullaan--tulla in present passive voice means...huhu, I have problem to figure out the passive meaning of this word, or actually you don't consider it in passive meaning? Same as saatu, I need to change eikä häntä saatu elvytettyäto elvytettyä häntä ei saatu and then try to translate like"revived her was ... " oops, the passive meaning of saada again seems unclear to me. So, a bit help maybe?

Epäselvät maalit ja filmaukset puhuttavat pelaajia, yleisöä, mutta myös erotuomareita Etelä-Afrikan MM-kisoissa.

I think it means: Players, spectators, but also referees in World Championship games in South-Africa talk about the indefinite goals and shootings(filming). I suppose "puhuttavat" comes from "puhuttaa" but I cannot find the word "puhuttaa" from dictionary, or is it coming from "puhua", but I doubt it as it should be put in front of Epäselvät maalit ja filmaukset meaning "indefinite goals and shootings that are talked".

last one:

CNN:n haastattelemat erotuomarit kertovat käyttävänsä mielellään kaikkia niitä työkaluja, jotka heille annetaan.

The referees interviewed by CNN tell that they will gladly use all those tools, that are given to them.

[Upphew]

I guess välttämisesksi should be välttämiseksi and tullaaan should be tullaan?

Correct.

Epäselvät maalit ja filmaukset puhuttavat pelaajia, yleisöä, mutta myös erotuomareita Etelä-Afrikan MM-kisoissa.

I think it means: Players, publics, but also referees in World Championship games in South-Africa talk about the indefinite goals and shootings. I suppose "puhuttavat" comes from "puhuttaa" but I cannot find the word "puhuttaa" from dictionary, or is it coming from "puhua", but I doubt it as it should be put in front of Epäselvät maalit ja filmaukset meaning "indefinite goals and shootings that are talked".

Well the filmaukset were quite clear on replays... it's hard to have sympathy for someone who holds his head in pain that was caused elbow blow that didn't hit... sometimes you need more acting skills than anything else...

puhuttaa, laulattaa, itkettää, naurattaa... to make someone do something.

last one:

CNN:n haastattelemat erotuomarit kertovat käyttävänsä mielellään kaikkia niitä työkaluja, jotka heille annetaan.

The referees interviewed by CNN tell that they will gladly use all those tools, that are given to them.

are given to them or will be given to them.

[Pursuivant]

pelastushelikopteri Ilmarin miehistöä

But what is the meaning of this?

Those guys in orange boilersuits

Besides Ilmari, theres also Aslak, Mediheli and Sepe

[Pursuivant]

so this is actually elvytettyä häntä eikä saatu? elvytettyä-a past passive participle in partitive acts as a premodifier to häntä is the subject; and eikä saatu is the verb.

en saanut vettä kannettua
en saanut kahvia juotua
en saanut naista elvyttettyä

get the difference?
en saanut kannettua vettä
en saanut vettä kannettua
so there is the first meaning to the second if you stretch it poetic

I couldn't get the water carried
I couldn't get the coffee drunk
I couldn't get the woman resucitated

so then, the emphasis changes from me to what
vettä en saanut kannettua (kannoin puita)
kahvia en saanut juotua (join viinaa)
naista en saanut elvytettyä (elvytin miehen)

the woman, I could not get resucitated

so then instead of me its that somebody doing things

the woman could not be resucitated
naista ei saatu elvytetyksi
or as RobA would say; the woman could be not begotten into the state of liveness

[garoowood]

I guess välttämisesksi should be välttämiseksi and tullaaan should be tullaan?

Correct.

Epäselvät maalit ja filmaukset puhuttavat pelaajia, yleisöä, mutta myös erotuomareita Etelä-Afrikan MM-kisoissa.

I think it means: Players, publics, but also referees in World Championship games in South-Africa talk about the indefinite goals and shootings. I suppose "puhuttavat" comes from "puhuttaa" but I cannot find the word "puhuttaa" from dictionary, or is it coming from "puhua", but I doubt it as it should be put in front of Epäselvät maalit ja filmaukset meaning "indefinite goals and shootings that are talked".

Well the filmaukset were quite clear on replays... it's hard to have sympathy for someone who holds his head in pain that was caused elbow blow that didn't hit... sometimes you need more acting skills than anything else...

puhuttaa, laulattaa, itkettää, naurattaa... to make someone do something.

Ok, so filmaus actually means play-acting, not shooting here.
But why puhuttaa-make someone talk? Would puhuvat from puhua suffices?