Sotilasmusiikkikoulu, etc.

[Rob A.]

I thought I would pull this post over here so as not to derail that "municipal merger" thread any longer.....

So I assume you would just use armeija ... armeijan puolustamaan Heinolaan....??

That’s probably better... although still fairly generic and it does have a bit of that “layman-speak” feel to it as well.

If you want to write in a more formal (or “expert”) fashion, you would typically use words such as puolustusvoimat, maavoimat, ilmavoimat, merivoimat, or refer to the particular garrisons/bases/units by their name (such as Hämeen rykmentti or Karjalan prikaati).

Hämeen rykmentin alaisuudessa toimiva Sotilasmusiikkikoulu on lähettänyt Heinolan kaupungin suojaksi kaksi kuviomarssijoukkuetta ja yhden rumpalin.

"Acting under the authority of the Häme Regiment the Soldier's Music School sent for the protection of the city of Heinola two marching band platoons and one drummer."

How about the word, sotaväki?

Generic, old-fashioned. 90-year-old grannies might use that word.

...and a few other words seem to be possible:

sotamies...taistelija....and I suppose you have to put these into context to use them correctly... herttasotamies


The context of the article about the municipal mergers seems to be such that you might use English words like: "followers", "disciples", "minions", "henchmen", "cohorts" ....people that you can rely on because they have a vested interest in supporting you...

Or maybe US Westerns.... Montanassa "Little Big Hornin" taistelulla (taistelussa??) intiaanisotajoukot hyökkäsivät ja päihittivät Custeriin ja sinun ratsuväkiin.

I think the word sotajoukot is best used for historical (pre-WW2-era) organized, hierarchical military (army) units. American natives on warpath might be better described as “warriors” (soturit) since their style of warfare might have been more individualistic and flexible and not based on rigid ranks, command structures, units, and formal military strategies.

OK...though I wouldn't be so sure that these kinds of warriors were "individualistic"....they could be very well organized and very tactical.... Their problem when dealing with European armies was one of technology, not tactics and strategy.... One of the most dramatic drubbings of a European army against native armies was the Zulu Battle of Isandlwana...and there the Zulus used the tactical maneuvre known as the "Horns of the Buffalo"....which their soldiers/warriors were well-trained in.... But battles are not wars, just a part of it...and the Zulu victory pretty well guaranteed their eventual defeat.... Afterall the humilation had to be righted.... But I get your point sotajoukko and such words are used when old battles and wars, and such, have moved into the the realm of the romantic or mythical. In English you might say, biblically ..."heavenly hosts"...the archangels.. And as I see the wiktionary translation for that use of the English word, "host" is....wait for it!!....sotajoukko... So I suppose the translation would have to be: taivaallinen sotajoukot... and, bravely, I feel so confident that I didn't check this in Google...

I'm not sure about the case endings for Custer and ratsuväki....What do you do if you are using two verbs in this manner?

Montanassa tapahtuneessa Little Bighornin taistelussa intiaanisoturit hyökkäsivät ja päihittivät Custerin johtaman ratsuväkirykmentin.

or maybe just

Little Bighornin taistelussa Montanassa intiaanisoturit hyökkäsivät ja päihittivät Custerin johtaman ratsuväkirykmentin.

Could you say:

Montanassa tapahtuneessa Little Bighornin taistelussa intiaanisoturit hyökkäsivät Custerin johtaman ratsuväkirykmentin kimpuun ja päihittivät sen. ...and maybe instead of kimpuun you could use päällä ...???

Here Custerin johtaman ratsuväkinrykmentin appears to be a genitive noun... ??.... phrase, and sen is in the accusative..."defeat" is a completed action, so it wouldn't be in the partitive. Right???

[Pursuivant]

Hämeen rykmentin alaisuudessa toimiva Sotilasmusiikkikoulu on lähettänyt Heinolan kaupungin suojaksi kaksi kuviomarssijoukkuetta ja yhden rumpalin.

"Acting under the authority of the Häme Regiment the Soldier's Music School sent for the protection of the city of Heinola two marching band platoons and one drummer."
[/quote][/quote]

The Military Music Academy detachment of the Häme Regiment sent...

[Rob A.]

Thanks
I still tend to translate Finnish in a fairly literal way...I suppose one has to be well immersed in the day-to-day culture to make certain kinds of distinctions....that sotilasmusiikkikoulu would carry the same sense as "Military Music Academy" would in English.

I suppose in typical situations it would be as simple as this:

koulu="school"
yliopisto/korkeakoulu="university"
akatemia="academy"
seminaari="seminary"

Also....I'm having a bit of trouble with:

...alaisuus toimiva....what does this mean literally? I can see that toimiva is the present participle of the verb, toimia....

[onkko]

Also....I'm having a bit of trouble with:

...alaisuus toimiva....what does this mean literally? I can see that toimiva is the present participle of the verb, toimia....

Alaisuus = "in under of" toimiva "working on".
Alaisuus is from alamaisuudessa (think kings) is from jonkin alla (under something). In under of command of. Working in under of command of...
I dont know if this does any sence, im drunk and under alcohol infliuence

[AldenG]

Alaisuus is like "subordination" and "xxx toimiva" can often be translated with a subordinate clause starting with "which" or by injecting an attributive phrase using commas or parentheses. Your alaiset at work are those who report to you.

I thought Academy a little too grand a word for such a subordinate unit, so I dug up the English-language Wikipedia page for Häme Regiment. They call it the Military Music School and I'm making a leap of faith that that's official. Going with School, I still think that since Military Music is not a name (apart from being part of the name of this thing itself), most English-language institutions would have called it a School of Military Music.

So it's:

the School of Military Music, part of the Häme Regiment,

or:

the School of Military Music, which functions under the Häme Regiment,

I think maybe the reason that toimiva didn't say this to you yet is that in translating it to "acting," you're seeing too much verb and not enough adjective in it. You cannot use that form to say something like "Acting under the authority of the Temporary Powers Act, this panel orders that..."

The -va ending is purely descriptive, as in "a functioning cell phone." The most direct verb-ish translation of acting would be toimien, though chances are good you wouldn't translate my Temporary Powers example word-for-word and would end up with a different form or even no form of toimia at all. (Perusteella -- on the basis of -- is a popular way of expressing that kind of thing.)

So most literally, it's one of those "The under-the-Häme-Regiment-functioning School of Military Music has sent..." constructs

[AldenG]

For Finns:

In conversation, people talk about music schools, art schools, art museums and so on. But in naming, it most often becomes "School of Music" or "School of Art," or "Museum of Art." This leaves the beginning open for the name of a person or place, as in "The Aimo Mustonen School of Military Music," The Jacobs School of Music, The Savannah College of Art and Design, or The Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum -- which contains a collection of art, not a collection of little Guggenheims.

[Rob A.]

For Finns:

In conversation, people talk about music schools, art schools, art museums and so on. But in naming, it most often becomes "School of Music" or "School of Art," or "Museum of Art." This leaves the beginning open for the name of a person or place, as in "The Aimo Mustonen School of Military Music," The Jacobs School of Music, The Savannah College of Art and Design, or The Solomon R. Guggenheim Museum -- which contains a collection of art, not a collection of little Guggenheims.

Heh...yes.... in this instance it is equivalent to a genitive form... ."Solomon R. Guggenheim's"....one those relatively rare instances where English can have a case ending...the possessive case, but, alas, as here, it is often implied.... but I can see the difficulty for someone learning English .... How do you know that say, "The Train Museum", contains a collection of trains and does not "belong" to someone named "Train"....I guess you don't, except from context. Or maybe, "Art Museum" is really "Art's Museum (of Poisonous Spiders)"...

Hmmmm, I guess I'll have to think about this ...

[Edit: I suppose this confusion wouldn't happen in Finnish..

"Art's Museum of Poisonous Spiders"=Artin Myrkylliset Hämähäkit Museo....something like that I guess... ]

[Jukka Aho]

In English you might say, biblically ..."heavenly hosts"...the archangels.. And as I see the wiktionary translation for that use of the English word, "host" is....wait for it!!....sotajoukko... :wink: So I suppose the translation would have to be: taivaallinen sotajoukot... and, bravely, I feel so confident that I didn't check this in Google... :wink:

Well, your confidence is not misplaced here... see the search results.

Could you say:

Montanassa tapahtuneessa Little Bighornin taistelussa intiaanisoturit hyökkäsivät Custerin johtaman ratsuväkirykmentin kimpuun ja päihittivät sen. ...and maybe instead of kimpuun you could use päällä ...???

Note: kimppuun with two p's. Yeah, you could say it that way. Päällä (päälle) does not fit too well into this context, though. There are expressions such as hyökätä jonkun päälle or käydä jonkun päälle but they're typically used for one-on-one fist fights, catfights, or similar situations.

[Upphew]

Could you say:

Montanassa tapahtuneessa Little Bighornin taistelussa intiaanisoturit hyökkäsivät Custerin johtaman ratsuväkirykmentin kimpuun ja päihittivät sen. ...and maybe instead of kimpuun you could use päällä ...???

Note: kimppuun with two p's. Yeah, you could say it that way. Päällä (päälle) does not fit too well into this context, though. There are expressions such as hyökätä jonkun päälle or käydä jonkun päälle but they're typically used for one-on-one fist fights, catfights, or similar situations.

Montanassa tapahtuneessa Little Bighornin taistelussa intiaanisoturit hyökkäsivät Custerin johtaman ratsuväkirykmentin päälle ja päihittivät sen.

That conjures a mental image where the indians jump from the cliffs and land on top of the cavalry.