Verb conjugation

[tuomasxtarja]

Hi all,

I'm very new to the Finnish language - I know quite a few words and I am trying to start to build sentences. I think I've got the noun cases down but am still struggling with verb conjugation.

If I wanted to say, for example, "the door is closed", would this be
"ovi on sulkea" (also is sulkea the right verb for this case??) or "ovi on sulkeaan" (present passive) or something completely different?

Thanks!!

[Jukka Aho]

If I wanted to say, for example, "the door is closed", would this be
"ovi on sulkea" (also is sulkea the right verb for this case??) or "ovi on sulkeaan" (present passive) or something completely different?

Ovi on suljettu.

You could also say:

Ovi on kiinni. (shut)
Ovi on lukittu. (locked)

Orders / requests:

Sulje ovi.
Laita ovi kiinni.
Lukitse ovi.

More polite requests:

Sulkisitko oven.
Laittaisitko oven kiinni.
Lukitsisitko oven.

You might want to check out Verbix which is a website that conjugates Finnish verbs. Type sulkea in the box and you’ll get all the conjugations for it.

[Pursuivant]

ovi on suljettu

(should be easy as its on all notices)

[tuomasxtarja]

Ok thanks that makes sense just what is the difference betweeen the forms suljettu and suljettava? Could you please give an example of when you would use each?

[Pursuivant]

Well, suljettava is either something that "can be closed" (like minigrip bag) or more usually "must be closed". Suljettu is just plain closed.

So there can be a notice on the door.

Ovi on suljettu. (its shut, like permanently, use other exits)
Suljettava ovi. (ok, so this would be like a fire door)
Ovi on pidettävä suljettuna. (this door is supposed to be kept shut but some dick goes and keeps it open, KEEP THE DOOR SHUT)

[AldenG]

There's a common wall you seem to be running into here already, and it comes from the fact that you simply can't learn to create real Finnish sentences by studying the smallest bits and pieces and then starting to assemble them in ways that seem to you to make sense. You could know every conjugation and declension perfectly, and have a large vocabulary of individual words, and still not be able to create or interpret sentences correctly.

Instead you need to study real sentences as your starting point, and use your grammar resources to analyze what they mean and why they mean it. You make new sentences by a process of imitation and analogy -- making new sentences or phrases that are like other sentences or phrases and recombine bits of sentences you know are good. That's what natives do and that's what successful learners of Finnish as a second language eventually learn to do. In fact, that is the most universal essence of human language everywhere.

Of course it's easier and more orderly to study vocabulary and tables (and rules) of verb conjugations and noun declensions, and that's why so many beginners prefer that approach. (As I did before hitting on a better way.) It creates an illusion of great progress to learn a list, and it appeals to the analytical nature many of us have. But it's a dead end. Once you start trying to make sentences on that basis, you'll develop habits you will later have to put a lot of effort into unlearning.

No matter how you begin your studies, in the end you will succeed (if indeed you succeed at all) by studying real sentences, spoken and written, and beginning to emulate them. At that point some fluency in conjugations and declensions will become necessary -- but not as a starting point. In any case, the large bulk of Finnish sentences in daily use are built on a tiny subset of all the vocabulary and constructions that would hypothetically seem to possible from a descriptive grammar. Certain words are used mostly in certain forms and certain phrases. Many phrases occur over and over, including many phrases you'd never discover or imagine from studying rules of grammar.

While it's true there are still brain changes that take place from pre-teen and teen years into adulthood, the main reason people of those ages acquire Finnish more easily than adults is because they skip the "formalities" and jump straight into the emulation/adaptation mode. Study of rules can be a helpful support for that but not replace it as the primary activity.

As you look at sulkeva and suljettava (basically "closing" and "being closed") and then look at real-world usage like Pursuivant's definitions, it starts to become apparent that examples are more useful than prescriptions or explanations -- and that's sort of the whole principle I've been talking about. The meaning of a word lies in (examples of) the ways people use it. So does the meaning of a grammatical form.

[Rob A.]

Always a treat to read your posts, Alden.... This really is the only way...you can learn the rules in a general way, but practising with real-life examples will set it into your mind. With the example used here, I picked up on the "-va" and "-tu" endings...the first has a "present" tense, or condition, sense to it; the second ending, a "past" sense to it. And then you can go from there.

Personally, I do love the "analytical" approach, but I agree that is not how the language finally settles into your mind....

On Sunday I walked past a store front near where I live ...the sign said "Accent Reduction Centre".... There are lots of Chinese in the neighbourhood, so the "target" is obvious.

I thought: "Now how would they go about helping a person reduce a Chinese accent....." "What rules would they teach them...." "Or, would they even bother with rules..." English is full of so many exceptions I would think teaching "rules" would be almost useless.... I thought about the word, "skin"....many Chinese seem to pronounce that "skeen".... There is a "rule", of course. If there is no "e" at the end of the word, then the preceding vowel will be short....but then how do you explain the word, "ski".... Ahh well, that's easy... it's a "foreign" word...so there is an exception.... But "skin" is also "foreign"....they are both originally from "Norse" words.... Ahh, but "skin" is not quite so "foreign" as "ski".... [Edit: I should add that the distinction about the "degree of foreignness" would be clearly obvious to a native English speaker...so obvious it hardly needs explaining....but I can't see how it would be "obvious" to someone whose native language is other than English...]

Well, you see where I'm going...in the end you have to practice and rely on your memory.... So whether learning to reduce your Chinese accent, or learning Finnish grammar, better to start practising sooner rather than later...

[Upphew]

Well, you see where I'm going...in the end you have to practice and rely on your memory.... So whether learning to reduce your Chinese accent, or learning Finnish grammar, better to start practising sooner rather than later...

Nothing beats the gut feeling: http://www.northwestern.edu/newscenter/ ... aller.html

[tuomasxtarja]

Thanks Alden for all your insight. Actually my problem is lack of resources - I can't afford textbooks or lessons and don't know any natives. It's just me and the internet. Sometimes (actually most times) I'll be reading a site that doesn't give examples but only stupid verb tables. I'll be damned if I can figure out what partitive and all those big long words mean.

Beginner forums are really great for seeing the English meaning and context for different langague examples but these are beginners still experimenting with the langague and it isn't always right. So I came here and now you guys helped make an example for me that I can now learn from.

How do/did you guys learn Finnish? Any better (preferably free) resources?