Appeal?

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KTAL
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Appeal?

Post by KTAL » Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:59 am

Adrian42 wrote:Usually the easiest Residence Permit is the one for university studies.
The requirements for a one year Residence Permit for university studies are that you got accepted at a Finnish university, and that you have at least € 6720 in your own bank account.
The problem here is the timing:
Application for university is at the beginning of the year and studies start in September, so it would take one year until you would have that Residence Permit (assuming you got accepted to a Finnish university).
My bf was just saying we should've signed up for classes before I left. But I thought I will be busy with the full time Finnish class. Kicking myself right now!
Adrian42 wrote:What's ironic about that?
"No sex before marriage" is completely uncommon in Finland and nothing the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland demands.
Divorces are also pretty common in Finland and not a problem at all for the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland - I even know a female Finnish priest who is herself divorced.
Finland cannot blindly hand out Residence Permit to anyone when someone suddenly says some other person is his/her bf/gf (no matter the gender - homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationships are treated equally, and gay marriage is also treated equally to traditional marriage when applying for a Residence Permit).
You have to be able to prove some relationship, and having a child together or marriage or 2 years of living in the same apartment is a reasonable rule.
No doubt the church of Finland has made many compromises. Big organisations often have to. Divorces cannot be avoided - sometimes relationships just can't work out and it takes 2 hands to clap... I do not expect them to present me a residence permit just because I said someone is my bf/gf, though to be honest, there are many people who are not bf/gf and they were able to get residency by signing the papers with someone else who cares as little about "marriage", just for the residency. Do you not find it ironic that the strict laws have, in the end, made it easy for the real fake relationship, and difficult for the real ones? Well, except for having a child together with/without being married. The first of which will cause much distress to my family, the latter will come after marriage, which does not seem possible at the moment.
Adrian42 wrote:All the "integration courses" and "benefits of integrating and settling in Finland" with a family Residence Permit basically boils down to learning Finnish. And you can do that also while studying.
I'd also doubt that an integration course is necessarily better for integration than university studies with all the social contacts you get at university.
And regarding "except for earning a degree" - a degree is much better in your CV than several years of unemployment while learning Finnish. And if the OP ever decides to leave Finland the degree might still be valuable, while speaking Finnish might not be.
Apart from that you are right, from a financial point of view marriage would be better than coming as a student.
Very valid points, thanks for analysing them so clearly! You're right, one of the biggest barriers to intergration is the language. I've been taking lessons at the kansalaisopisto (ok, I can't even be sure I spelt that correctly) but I noticed that the students seem to be able to learn Finnish more easily because they get to practice with their Finnish contacts. As I have missed this round of university applications, I do not think this is possible at the moment. As for work or family... Most work seem to require knowledge of Finnish language (which is why I made it one of my priorities to learn Finnish while I was in Finland, albeit not very successfully as you can probably tell by now), especially since my current degree is not specialised like engineering, etc. After a long discussion, the bf and I have decided perhaps the best solution is to sign the papers. Though that is not set in stone as we still have to get my parents' approval (I'm way pass the legal age. Its cultural formalities.)... :|



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Rip
Posts: 5582
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: Appeal?

Post by Rip » Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:14 am

Wrote this before noticing the second page, but anyway:
KTAL wrote:
Adrian42 wrote:It does not matter whether or not you sleep together.

It does matter whether or not you have been living in the same apartment for 2 years.
I mean it literally. We practically live together = we spend most of our time in the same place. We don't sleep together = we go to our own beds. Nonetheless, no reason to go into detail - I'm sure the immigration officer won't accept that.
He meant it literally too. If not married (and without a child) two years living in same address, provable by reasonable documentaion like rental contract. Number of beds is irrelevant. It seems clear that only way you'd ever be regarded as a family, would be by getting married.
Adrian42 wrote:For getting a Residence Permit for Finland, one needs a reason.
Usually one of work, university studies or family ties is the reason.


Yea, I'm getting the drift of that. We're discussing how to overcome this hurdle.
By getting married, getting a suitable job or place to study for a degree.

Adrian42
Posts: 1119
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 11:13 pm

Re: Appeal?

Post by Adrian42 » Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:14 am

KTAL wrote:
Adrian42 wrote:What's ironic about that?
"No sex before marriage" is completely uncommon in Finland and nothing the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland demands.
Divorces are also pretty common in Finland and not a problem at all for the Evangelical Lutheran Church of Finland - I even know a female Finnish priest who is herself divorced.
Finland cannot blindly hand out Residence Permit to anyone when someone suddenly says some other person is his/her bf/gf (no matter the gender - homosexual relationships and heterosexual relationships are treated equally, and gay marriage is also treated equally to traditional marriage when applying for a Residence Permit).
You have to be able to prove some relationship, and having a child together or marriage or 2 years of living in the same apartment is a reasonable rule.
No doubt the church of Finland has made many compromises. Big organisations often have to. Divorces cannot be avoided - sometimes relationships just can't work out and it takes 2 hands to clap... I do not expect them to present me a residence permit just because I said someone is my bf/gf, though to be honest, there are many people who are not bf/gf and they were able to get residency by signing the papers with someone else who cares as little about "marriage", just for the residency. Do you not find it ironic that the strict laws have, in the end, made it easy for the real fake relationship, and difficult for the real ones?
There's nothing ironic about it, that is the only option to do it in practice:

How do you intend to prove that your relationship is real and not fake?

The decision on whether or not your relationship is fake will be made by some person sitting in an office looking at the papers you submitted.
And faking a relationship without marriage is even easier than doing that with marriage.
Marriage or 2 years of living together in the same apartment are indicators for a non-fake relationship someone can see based on the papers the applicant submitted.

How much time you and your bf are spending together, and what you are doing during this time (ironically, regularly having sex with each other would be the first thing that comes into my mind as indication of a serious relationship...) is nothing the person making the decision could check.

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Oombongo
Posts: 1949
Joined: Mon May 01, 2006 11:19 am
Location: local sewer pipe

Re: Appeal?

Post by Oombongo » Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:34 am

Finnish authorities are all about following their rules in their own way which, very well, takes your part of thinking and assumptions from the equation.
Sleeping together/not sleeping together in your personal business. Heck, they wouldn't care if you are sleeping with a peadobear or a Moomin or a Swedish troll. A proof of cohabiting (if not married) would be a rental agreement with the names of both parties written loud and clear, or proof of studies which was cleared by other posters :)
KTAL wrote: Thanks for chipping in.. I understand what you mean. Though its a little ironic that this is the law of a country well known for its Christian values.
Päivi Räsänen is not ze President of Finland...yet :mrgreen:
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Rip
Posts: 5582
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 12:08 pm

Re: Appeal?

Post by Rip » Tue Jul 16, 2013 10:27 am

Oombongo wrote:
KTAL wrote: Thanks for chipping in.. I understand what you mean. Though its a little ironic that this is the law of a country well known for its Christian values.
Päivi Räsänen is not ze President of Finland...yet :mrgreen:
and it could only make it more difficult to get a family permit. Having a priest to officiate in front of the couple is already sufficient.

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Pursuivant
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Re: Appeal?

Post by Pursuivant » Tue Jul 16, 2013 11:52 am

No doubt the church of Finland has made many compromises. Big organisations often have to. Divorces cannot be avoided - sometimes relationships just can't work out and it takes 2 hands to clap... I do not expect them to present me a residence permit just because I said someone is my bf/gf, though to be honest, there are many people who are not bf/gf and they were able to get residency by signing the papers with someone else who cares as little about "marriage", just for the residency. Do you not find it ironic that the strict laws have, in the end, made it easy for the real fake relationship, and difficult for the real ones?
The Church? Fine if you believe in some long-beared man sitting on a cloud throwing hot stones on peoples heads when they are naughty.Registry office and signed document is "proof"... If people commit fraud, well is alao done the other way, some people "divorce" to get single mother benefits. The officials want "proof" - whatever story you go tell them is no "proof" - documents are. You need to have a "reason", remember "I want/intend/plan" is not good enough. Otherwise we'd have beach souveniers fill the country before you can say Jack Robinson...

And its not the Finnish government's problem your bf needs to go rustle cattle to pay your bride price...
"By the pricking of my thumbs,
Something wicked this way comes."

KTAL
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon Jul 15, 2013 7:16 pm

Re: Appeal?

Post by KTAL » Tue Jul 16, 2013 2:51 pm

Thanks to Adrian and rip for the information. I think we have an idea how to go from here.


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