Is 'perhe' not countable in Finnish?

[Jukka Aho]

Well its the same issue as with any other word... say the wife.

Presidentin vastaanotolle saapui pääministeri vaimoineen... (has one wife)
Presidentin vastaanotolle saapui swazimaan kuningas vaimoineen... (has 50 wives)

If you say Kimi Räikkönen came off the ferry with his car, in English its fine, but in Finnish Kimi tuli laivalta autoineen it can be understood as a multiple, so Kimi could be coming with his car collection.... it is very context-related.

Well, yeah, but that’s primarily because you’re using the comitative case for which there is no separate singular form. Perhe/perhettä is a bit different thing still.

[Rob A.]

Well its the same issue as with any other word... say the wife.

Presidentin vastaanotolle saapui pääministeri vaimoineen... (has one wife)
Presidentin vastaanotolle saapui swazimaan kuningas vaimoineen... (has 50 wives)

If you say Kimi Räikkönen came off the ferry with his car, in English its fine, but in Finnish Kimi tuli laivalta autoineen it can be understood as a multiple, so Kimi could be coming with his car collection.... it is very context-related.

Well, yeah, but that’s primarily because you’re using the comitative case for which there is no separate singular form. Perhe/perhettä is a bit different thing still.

The comitative is usually translated to English as "...along with/ together with..." ...words to that effect.

But what if the King of Swaziland came with only twenty of his fifty wives....

Presidentin vastaanotolle saapui swazimaa kuningas kaksinekymmenine vaimoineen. Of course I had to look that word up...kaksinekymmenine.... I would never remember something like that....and would Finns actually use such a grammatical construction, or is there a simpler way of saying this?

....and if the pääministeri is a serial polygamist and came with his fourth wife would you say:

....saapui pääministeri neljänsinneen vaimoineen.? I can't see why not?? Or does the presumption of plural context in the absence of some reason to think something else mean that you would have to use some other "singular-type" grammatical construction?

Say...Presidentin vastaanotolle saapuivat pääministeri ja hänen neljäs vaimonsa.

[jahasjahas]

...and if the pääministeri is a serial polygamist and came with his fourth wife would you say:

....saapui pääministeri neljänsinneen vaimoineen.?

That should be "saapui pääministeri neljänsine vaimoineen".

Due to the linguistic acrobatics that are necessary both for producing and for understanding comitative sentences (and the ambiguity between the singular and the plural), they're pretty rare in speech. Wikipedia mentions some set phrases where you'd expect to see the comitative:

• vaimoineen ja lapsineen (huom. vaikka vaimoja olisi vain yksi!), perheineen
• kimpsuineen ja kampsuineen, tavaroineen päivineen, papereineen kaikkineen
• niine hyvineen, omin nokkineen
• Helsinki ympäristöineen, talo irtaimistoineen, hakemus liitteineen
• kaikkine mukavuuksineen

The comitative is easily replaced with a more analytical structure like "Presidentin vastaanotolle saapui pääministeri neljännen vaimonsa kanssa."

[Rob A.]

...and if the pääministeri is a serial polygamist and came with his fourth wife would you say:

....saapui pääministeri neljänsinneen vaimoineen.?

That should be "saapui pääministeri neljänsine vaimoineen".

Due to the linguistic acrobatics that are necessary both for producing and for understanding comitative sentences (and the ambiguity between the singular and the plural), they're pretty rare in speech. Wikipedia mentions some set phrases where you'd expect to see the comitative:

• vaimoineen ja lapsineen (huom. vaikka vaimoja olisi vain yksi!), perheineen
• kimpsuineen ja kampsuineen, tavaroineen päivineen, papereineen kaikkineen
• niine hyvineen, omin nokkineen
• Helsinki ympäristöineen, talo irtaimistoineen, hakemus liitteineen
• kaikkine mukavuuksineen

The comitative is easily replaced with a more analytical structure like "Presidentin vastaanotolle saapui pääministeri neljännen vaimonsa kanssa."

Thanks

....but I'm a bit confused by the word, neljänsine......it doesn't seem to agree with vaimoineen.....

Or am I forgetting some Finnish rule of grammar?

Maybe someone could parse the word for me....

[jahasjahas]

Thanks

....but I'm a bit confused by the word, neljänsine......it doesn't seem to agree with vaimoineen.....

Or am I forgetting some Finnish rule of grammar?

Maybe someone could parse the word for me....

It does. They're both in the comitative case.

Minä tulin neljänsine vaimoineni.
Sinä tulit neljänsine vaimoinesi.
Hän tuli neljänsine vaimoineen/vaimoinensa.

You're trying to add the possessive suffix to both the noun and its attribute.

*Minä tulin neljänsineni vaimoineni.
*Sinä tulit neljänsinesi vaimoinesi.
*Hän tuli neljänsineen/neljänsinensä vaimoineen/vaimoinensa.

You wouldn't say "*Ajan punaisellani autollani." either

[Rob A.]

Thanks

....but I'm a bit confused by the word, neljänsine......it doesn't seem to agree with vaimoineen.....

Or am I forgetting some Finnish rule of grammar?

Maybe someone could parse the word for me....

It does. They're both in the comitative case.

Minä tulin neljänsine vaimoineni.
Sinä tulit neljänsine vaimoinesi.
Hän tuli neljänsine vaimoineen/vaimoinensa.

You're trying to add the possessive suffix to both the noun and its attribute.

*Minä tulin neljänsineni vaimoineni.
*Sinä tulit neljänsinesi vaimoinesi.
*Hän tuli neljänsineen/neljänsinensä vaimoineen/vaimoinensa.

You wouldn't say "*Ajan punaisellani autollani." either

Thanks

Yeah...I thought it might be something like that.... I need to review the rules for possessive endings I guess...

[jahasjahas]

Yeah...I thought it might be something like that.... I need to review the rules for possessive endings I guess...

If it makes you feel any better, even a native speaker would be pretty tongue-tied trying to figure out something like "neljänsine vaimoineen".

I suppose the third person possessive suffix is the most difficult, since it can be -Vn or -nsA* depending on the noun's case. (See table 46 at the end of Iso suomen kielioppi's page § 95 Mitä ja millaisia possessiivisuffiksit ovat?