the place of Swedish in Finland.

[foca]

historically Fennoman movement was to some degree influenced by " abandonment" of swedes in Finland by the swedish government during the Napoleonic wars. the resulting politically motivated exchange of Finland for Norway was resented by some Swedish who were left in the Russian empire, hence :

swedes we are no more....

[Noral]

ok. let us make some changes to your statement.

Estonian independence didn't consist in Estonian speakers overthrowing Russian speakers, or Russian speaking elites being replaced with Estonian speaking ones.

Maybe not within Estonia, but Estonia achieved independence from a Russian-controlled state.

Swedish in Finland as a ruling class had a much longer and more profound history, unlike Russians in Estonia (before 1917 the language of learned classes in Estonia was not Russian , it was German. those who wanted to study in the Derpt university had to learn German). Swedish (Fennoman mostly) made a conscious choice to learn Finnish and over the period of time to develop a separate from mainland Sweden identity.

How does this translate to Finland having achieved independence from Sweden (or something equivalent) in 1917?

See above for Estonian leadership. I think they were very much weary of what might happen in Russia, but yet they were and still are the people with absolutely a soviet upbringing. Initially they considered to take it more correctly ( for example there were mutual agreements on free citizenship choice between Russia and Estonia), but then they realized they could pull this off and much more nationalistic approach was chosen . in essence they perfectly well understood that being protected by EU and NATO and with all that turmoil in Russian they have nothing to be afraid off while enforcing nationalistic language laws.

I was thinking more of what would have happened (or rather, what Estonian leadership saw happening) if Estonia had enacted less exclusive laws. (Again, I'm not defending the citizenship policies they enacted.)

and it is not just the language it is the human rights question. as I stated earlier they have the right to speak their language , to have their children educated in their language and to conduct official business with the state in their own language.

I don't think that the last two things you list are irreducible rights/priorities (but I also don't think this thread is the place to argue about it).

(By "conducting official business with the state in one's own language", I assume you mean irrespectively of whether the person is monolingual or not.)

And I do not understand why particular percentages should force some adults to bear consequences of certain governments decisions, which these adults never had a chance to vote for. And it is not me who invoked the percentages into discussion.

It wasn't me, either: I asked earlier why children of immigrants to Soviet-era Estonia should be treated differently (in terms of language entitlements) from children of immigrants to the United States, without mentioning percentages at all.

as I said before on a number of occasion a nation is defined by many characteristics, and language is only one of them. the Finnish Swedish have a unique national identity , they feel themselves different from Swedish in Sweden,

Of course they do -- they're citizens of a different country than Sweden, and for the most part their social and economic lives take place in Finland rather than Sweden. And making Swedish an official regional and minority language in Finland won't change that.

taking away the status of their language will definitely change their affinity towards Finland and the way how they perceive themselves.

I'm not convinced that this is the only reasonable result to expect, but I've said that before.

You can reply to this post if you like, but I don't think it's productive to continue this discussion any longer. I think this thread as a whole should be moved out of the Kielikoulu section of the forum, since it has nothing to do with learning Finnish, and it's taking attention away from other threads that do.

[Noral]

Since the promotion of Finnish by bilingual Swedes was done at the expense of Swedish (i.e., at the expense of Swedish's supremacy in Finland), it's difficult for me to understand how Swedish played a positive role in this process.

?????? did they play a negative role then, for whom and how? it seems that you comment for the sake of commenting....

Swedish played a negative "role" in the sense that it diminished in significance (to make room for Finnish), as a result of the promotion efforts of people whose native language happened to be Swedish.

[AldenG]

Finland is a PITA for the EU much like some Finns (probably a small but vocal minority, as llewellyn notes) regard the Swedish-speaking minority in their own country -- except that Finns are a significantly smaller minority among Europeans than Swedish speakers are among Finns.

Yet it's a good thing that NATO and later the EU didn't just shrug and say "Aw, f*ck 'em" about Finland. Of course some Finns, maybe some of that same vocal minority, probably think it was entirely their own military might and diplomatic brilliance that kept them free to continue speaking Finnish and Swedish all those years.

Some Finns might also say they contribute to the EU in disproportion to their numbers. To which I would say: isn't irony just full of . . . irony?

[foca]

Swedish played a negative "role" in the sense that it diminished in significance (to make room for Finnish), as a result of the promotion efforts of people whose native language happened to be Swedish.

Swedish speakers ( learned people to start with) made a step towards the majority of the people of the country where they had been born in, the step in expense of their own significance and presupposed importance in the society. it is unprecedented in the human history . it was only logic and honorable for Finns to acknowledge the importance of Swedish in return by making it official language of the country. you may call it a " negative role" I call it an act of contrition. it was in a way a covenant , which may be broken when the current system of official languages (if not actual bilingualism) is destroyed.

[foca]

Finland is a PITA for the EU

[onkko]

Swedish played a negative "role" in the sense that it diminished in significance (to make room for Finnish), as a result of the promotion efforts of people whose native language happened to be Swedish.

Swedish speakers ( learned people to start with) made a step towards the majority of the people of the country where they had been born in, the step in expense of their own significance and presupposed importance in the society. it is unprecedented in the human history . it was only logic and honorable for Finns to acknowledge the importance of Swedish in return by making it official language of the country. you may call it a " negative role" I call it an act of contrition. it was in a way a covenant , which may be broken when the current system of official languages (if not actual bilingualism) is destroyed.

And i present you http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axel_Olof_Freudenthal and medal RKP gave until 2007. There is face of current swedish speakers.
http://www.uusisuomi.fi/kotimaa/74717-r ... an-kouluun there is RKP example what is new.
And your "learned people" of course they were, who in history is not learned and when we take in account that swedish was de facto mandatory for anyone to be "learned"...
And there is no "actual bilinqualism", few are bilingual and in finnish scale there is no bilingualism. If you look young then partial with finnish-english.

Sure there were lot of swedish speakers who were pro finnish but it was finns who fought those rights. http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fennomaani

Same way finns were important in sweden as it was from 1200s to 1808 and still finnish isnt official language in sweden. Instead they invent new languages to avoid it (meänkieli). There are more swedes with finnish than finns with swedish.

De facto smal percentage of people makes huge majority of people to learn their language to serve them.

Do you want that i rant about ahvenanmaa where finnish speaker cannot even own property?

[foca]

1. Same way finns were important in sweden as it was from 1200s to 1808 and still finnish isnt official language in sweden. Instead they invent new languages to avoid it (meänkieli).

2. Do you want that i rant about ahvenanmaa where finnish speaker cannot even own property?

1. how is it a reason to change the official status of Swedish in Finland? you have a system which seems to be better than Swedish, so use EU and other political possibilities to put pressure onto Sweden. or perhaps you just want to settle a score?

2. Finnish as much as Swedish or Danish etc.. can own property there, having lived there for 5 years. the rule absolutely identical for everyone and does not segregate on language basis.

[onkko]

1. Same way finns were important in sweden as it was from 1200s to 1808 and still finnish isnt official language in sweden. Instead they invent new languages to avoid it (meänkieli).

2. Do you want that i rant about ahvenanmaa where finnish speaker cannot even own property?

1. how is it a reason to change the official status of Swedish in Finland? you have a sister which seems to be better than Swedish, so use EU and other political possibilities to put pressure onto Sweden. or perhaps you just want to settle a score?

2. Finnish as much as Swedish or Danish etc.. can own property there, having lived there for 5 years. the rule absolutely identical for everyone and does not segregate on language basis.

Where sister came? i do have sister but i didnt bring her up here as she is irrelevant. Legal status is relevant when other countries in similar situation dont have it.

Apparently you dont know ahvenanmaa rules. Dont compare it to irrelevant countries.

[foca]

Apparently you dont know ahvenanmaa rules. Dont compare it to irrelevant countries.

Apparantly I Do. Amuse yourself

http://www.formin.fi/public/default.asp ... S#domicile

so as you have a right of domicile you can get property there, the rule is applicable to everyone on equal basis. and as far as I know , if one wants to have a cottage there exemptions from the domicile rule can be received without much problems.

[onkko]

Apparently you dont know ahvenanmaa rules. Dont compare it to irrelevant countries.

Apparantly I Do. Amuse yourself

http://www.formin.fi/public/default.asp ... S#domicile

so as you have a right of domicile you can get property there, the rule is applicable to everyone on equal basis. and as far as I know , if one wants to have a cottage there exemptions from the domicile rule can be received without much problems.

"and have an adequate knowledge of Swedish"

I rest my case

[Upphew]

and as far as I know , if one wants to have a cottage there exemptions from the domicile rule can be received without much problems.

I don't think the exemption is as easy to get as you say. I'm willing to be corrected, but http://www.taloussanomat.fi/rakentamine ... 0822588/12 and http://www.iltasanomat.fi/matkat/art-1288388826335.html left me with impression that it really is exception rather than rule.

[007]

Immigrants who have lived in Åland for five years, are Finnish citizens and have an adequate knowledge of Swedish may apply for the status.

Are Finnish citizens considered as immigrants there?

[foca]

Immigrants who have lived in Åland for five years, are Finnish citizens and have an adequate knowledge of Swedish may apply for the status.

Are Finnish citizens considered as immigrants there?

That particular excerpt made me uneasy too. i checked the Swedish text and it seems that the right of domicile shall be given to those who have lived in Ålands and are Finnish citizens....so first , having lived at least 5 years there one has to get Finnish citizenship (if they do not have it) and only then he/she gets the domicile status. It seems that even an EU (other than Finniish) citizen should become a Finnish one before acquiring full residency status. Amusing.....

[foca]

Apparently you dont know ahvenanmaa rules. Dont compare it to irrelevant countries.

Apparantly I Do. Amuse yourself

http://www.formin.fi/public/default.asp ... S#domicile

so as you have a right of domicile you can get property there, the rule is applicable to everyone on equal basis. and as far as I know , if one wants to have a cottage there exemptions from the domicile rule can be received without much problems.

"and have an adequate knowledge of Swedish"

I rest my case

of course you should, you have been to school and has not learned the language apparently...