integration of Vietnamese people

[Upphew]

Having lived in East Helsinki for 13 years. I can tell you Somalians have integrated pretty well. They all speak Finnish. They work. Kids are well behaved. They are friendly. I'd take 10 Somalians over 1 Romanian Gypsy.

Like I said: enough screw ups, everyone gets labelled.

I do doubt their Finnish skills though, as one company arranged 60000 hours of translation in year 2013. Most translated languages were Russian, Somali and Arabic.

There are approx 50,000 (prob more) people in Finland who speak those 3 languages. So, 60,000 billed hours isn't a lot. Especially considering that they bill min 1 hour to translate simple stuff. I needed one page document translated from Finnish to English and they billed 2 hours!!! My husband read it and explained it to me in 15mins but of course he's not an official translator so we had to pay for an "official" to translate it into the exact words my husband used but charge 2 hours for it!!!
I can imagine that a single asylum seeker who's just landed with no Finnish skills and all documents they have in Somali/Arabic etc would use up at least 5 hours of translation if not more.

Numbers were from HEV and hus. Granted Helsinki has two reception centers, but it would be more likely to end up into some other center.

There are certainly more than 50000 of people with those three languages. That number is found in Uusimaa region alone. As the number of hours were from that area too and there are dozens of other languages in the mix, the one hour per year might be quite close.

[Beep_Boop]

Yes, exactly what I anticipated. After the original two points in the OP's argument were refuted, there was some resistance due to lack of understanding of basic logical deduction based on statistics and giving more value to anecdotes and limited personable experience over actual empirical evidence, and now the conversation became about something completely different.

Although, to be fair, that's not really very different from what happens in almost every other forum on the Internet.. or pretty much any conversation between 95% of the world's population in real life.

[Honest]

After all this discussion and looking a little deeper I would say Vietnamese on average are no more integrated into the society than any other group of immigrants. There are somethings which give them a little advantage over others and as a result they are perceived more integrated.

1- Their skin colour attracts lesser response than darker people.

2- An influx of Thai ladies married to Finnish men has also helped a lot in giving the impression of integration. It's not possible for a common person to differentiate between a Thai and a Vietnamese in the street. People think they are mixing well (intermarriages)

3- As there are more females visible than the males (again thanks to Thai ladies) xenophobic people feel less threatened and react with a lesser degree of agression.

4- They have been living here for a long time so a whole new generation has grown up here with fluent Finnish language skills, so there are more of them who can get some kind of work if they want to work. They also face lesser discremination while applying for jobs than a dark skinned person.

Again, I would not call it integration, it's just a normal co-existence.

[Pursuivant]

you forgot
5. they don't dress funny, or have you seen a vietnamese man in a suit with the shirt out of his pants?
6. they don't demand a buddhist om recital room at work 5 times a day
7. They dont complain about food or if they need to work with a woman boss

[caster]

you forgot
5. they don't dress funny, or have you seen a vietnamese man in a suit with the shirt out of his pants?
6. they don't demand a buddhist om recital room at work 5 times a day
7. They dont complain about food or if they need to work with a woman boss

Vous Etes Charlie

[harryc]

"more value to anecdotes and limited personable experience over actual empirical evidence"

Actually, "anecdotes and limited personable experience" are indeed "empirical evidence" - it's a question of getting enough data to achive a statistically significant 'n' - and of course the whole methodology must be appropriate.

[onkko]

Having lived in East Helsinki for 13 years. I can tell you Somalians have integrated pretty well. They all speak Finnish. They work. Kids are well behaved. They are friendly. I'd take 10 Somalians over 1 Romanian Gypsy.

Worst rate of employment, education, etc... of immigrants. You may know some well integrated and educated but that doesnt change reality. I take 1000 romanian gypsies over 1 somali because romanian gypsies cost way less, one somali costs about 1 million euros.

[Beep_Boop]

Actually, "anecdotes and limited personable experience" are indeed "empirical evidence" - it's a question of getting enough data to achive a statistically significant 'n' - and of course the whole methodology must be appropriate.

"It's a question of..", and you see, that's the most important part. That's what elevates anecdotes to some form of evidence (basically what you said): Statistically significant sample + appropriate scientific methodology. And I completely agree with you.
Now the issue is: Would it possible to collect statistically significant data in the course of a person's life with normal normal-person interactions? I'm afraid that's not possible. That's why, scientifically, we have a clear distinction between what counts as empirical evidence and what does not. Certainly, "I haven't met many Vietnamese who are married to Finns" does not.

one somali costs about 1 million euros.

A year? Over his lifetime? A month? Source for that, maybe?
Please give a source that explicitly says that information (or a very close approximation), or it's relatedly directly deducible.

P.S. (since it's needed with you) I'm not saying Somalis don't cost money.. oh they do, but I'd still like to see a source for what you claimed.

[onkko]

edited and dont know why this is here, look bottom.

[onkko]

P.S. (since it's needed with you) I'm not saying Somalis don't cost money.. oh they do, but I'd still like to see a source for what you claimed.

Over lifetime. http://rahmispossu.net/2013/09/08/jokai ... a-kruunua/ is one source.

[Beep_Boop]

Over lifetime. http://rahmispossu.net/2013/09/08/jokai ... a-kruunua/ is one source.

Thanks for that.
Just one important thing to note: "One Somali and his descendants", at least according to the Norwegian source that your source is referencing.
But yeah, the number is pretty high. Quite higher than refugees of other countries. I think it can be relatively applicable to Finland as well. Probably not with the same number, I'd think for Finland it would be somewhere 70-80% of that number (completely pulled out of my ass, but in a slightly educated-guess manner). Still very high.

[Upphew]

Maybe Somalis should be left out of these comparison. They seem to be special case. http://www.psmag.com/politics-and-law/w ... rent-26347
Their lack of integration can't be put entirely on their skin colour as their neighbours, Kenyans and Ethiopians, have fared quite well here. When those two have had lower unemployment rates than average in Finland, single digits, Somalis had about 50%.

[Oho]

Maybe Somalis should be left out of these comparison. They seem to be special case. http://www.psmag.com/politics-and-law/w ... rent-26347
Their lack of integration can't be put entirely on their skin colour as their neighbours, Kenyans and Ethiopians, have fared quite well here. When those two have had lower unemployment rates than average in Finland, single digits, Somalis had about 50%.

Well for most of the Kenyans and Ethiopians maintaining right of residence in Finland requires ability to support themselves, which sets them apart from the bulk of the Somalis (whom the state of Finland though not the populace seems to bend over backwards for to accommodate). This kind of sort of means on one hand that Ethiopians and Kenyans are likelier to accept pretty much any work and on the other the ones that cannot demonstrate satisfactory livelihood either have to leave or stay as undocumented when their current permit has run its course. Either way the upshot is much lower unemployment rate.

[Pursuivant]

Ethiopians & Eritreans also come on the refugee/asylum ticket. Kenya is a border country to the south. However these people lack the "bossman attitude"... I think the Somalians must be related to the "piällysmies" people from Savo