Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

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betelgeuse
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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by betelgeuse » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:16 pm

Upphew wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:22 am
FinlandGirl wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:09 pm
suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:03 pm
So, as far as I know, and I hope I am wrong, I am guess the one "citizens initiative" that already sailed so fast and will sail with flying colours in the parliament would be the surcharge on aviation, also called the flying tax (news from YLE).
It would be more effective if the government would stop exempting flights from VAT.
For train tickets you pay 10% VAT on top of the price, flights have 0% VAT.
Flights have 10% VAT in Finland. If you fly abroad then you'll likely have seen that even the shops near the plane advertise as tax free...
That would be in the Non Schengen area only.



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betelgeuse
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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by betelgeuse » Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:20 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 8:16 pm
Upphew wrote:
Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:22 am
Flights have 10% VAT in Finland. If you fly abroad then you'll likely have seen that even the shops near the plane advertise as tax free...
That would be in the Non Schengen area only.
Even this is not accurate with UK, Åland etc. Let's just put it this way that the destination matters and there can be full duties and taxes on non domestic flights as well.

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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:52 pm

betelgeuse wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:18 am
The fuel surcharge goes to the airlines. It’s not a tax.
I haven't looked at it in detail, there is the fuel charge and fuel surcharges, and surcharges are imposed for a variety of reasons including fuel costs, services, travel time and equipment use. A surcharge may fee be a flat rate or calculated as a percentage of the original bill.

BUT that does not mean that the government does not get revenues from airlines. There is the landing fees per passenger. But the tax on fuel is not a Finnish grant!

"The Convention on International Civil Aviation (ICAO) (Chicago 1944, Article 24) exempts air fuels already loaded onto an aircraft on landing (and which remain on the aircraft) from import taxes.[20] Bi-lateral air services agreements govern the tax exemption of aviation fuels. In the course of an EU initiative, many of these agreements have been modified to allow taxation"


SO, this would just put an additional strain on being competitive.
Oombongo wrote:
Sat Nov 23, 2019 10:36 am
How will the extra cash be used? On technologies like Ocean Cleanup by some 25 years old dude or using it to fund the trips of 16 years old who really doesn't have any solutions and ideas, and doesn't dare scream at leaders from countries raking top in producing pollution.

What I would propose is to implement this tax on Finnair, take the data of those people who support this tax to see whether they'll use Finnair for their travels or their campaign is nothing more than a distasteful virtue signalling.
Most likely so! Some 16 year old on tablets of hysteria pushed by the idiots to advance their cause when they themselves do not produce much. Corrupt thinking at its core.

I think people need to mind their own fü€k!ng business.

Most of these retards are interested in telling *others* what not to do, don't fly, don't drive, don't eat meat, and the list keeps growing, just find a cause, scream it out and there... you're a celeb. But have no interest in resolving things that might make a difference. E.g. STOP using plastic bottles, use glass bottles (as was earlier). Stop using these new packaging that need to be recycled from start, use bottles for milk as well. Many things that can be done.
Valinnan vapaus wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:46 pm
I wonder what the conversion rate is between toilet paper pieces and water. If you skip the first, will you end up using more of the other?
Wouldn't that be an easy answer, at least the first part? Using paper (cutting down trees) affects global warming! Water recycles naturally! But that is not the point. The point was hypocrisy! :)

[And if you went back a few hundred years [I'm not suggesting it] people went outdoors, dug a hole, did their thing, covered it up. Few weeks, and then it became fertilizer. Then we invented the toilet, used toilet paper, and water to flush, and then led to intestinal problems, because medically squatting was the best position for the body. And we happily call this development!!!]
Valinnan vapaus wrote:
Wed Nov 27, 2019 6:46 pm
On a personal level I try to make the most out of every piece, up to the point of tearing off just a small shred if I know that's all I'll need for something.
Er, twitching as I read this... let's say TMI (Too Much Information)! I am tempted to give a rebuttal that rimming might not be a good option at anytime! :twisted:

The other day I was talking to a young person, his view made sense: Driving along the roads, one sees massive advertising and lighting at 00:00. And the garages lit up like Christmas. Why? Switch them off, save electricity! So-called Christmas trees made of plastic. Really? And nobody wants to raise their concerns on that?

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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by Upphew » Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:40 am

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:52 pm
Most likely so! Some 16 year old on tablets of hysteria pushed by the idiots to advance their cause when they themselves do not produce much. Corrupt thinking at its core.
Greta? And she only wants people to listen to experts, not her...
suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:52 pm
I think people need to mind their own fü€k!ng business.
I think people should conduct their business in a way that doesn't piss on other people's ankles.
suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:52 pm
Most of these retards are interested in telling *others* what not to do, don't fly, don't drive, don't eat meat, and the list keeps growing, just find a cause, scream it out and there... you're a celeb. But have no interest in resolving things that might make a difference. E.g. STOP using plastic bottles, use glass bottles (as was earlier). Stop using these new packaging that need to be recycled from start, use bottles for milk as well. Many things that can be done.
I think many of those who moan about flying or meat don't have to stop using them... they already did.
As a consumer I don't have possibility to buy milk in a bottle, there is none available. The refillable glass bottles (bulk of them would have been beer) seem to have disappeared. Now that I put plastics in different bin, I can see that the plastic packaging makes up nearly all my trash. Can you even buy most of the food items without plastic packaging?
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Piet
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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by Piet » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:04 am

"some say give me tax for driving, the other says I'll tax you for flying, third says I'll tax you for eating meat, another says I'll tax you for sugar, another says I'll tax you for drinking alcohol."
Nice one, this would be a good START.

Buy plastic bottles, they cost less energy to produce, make sure to recycle them, more "pantti" on all plastics will help there.
Buy a plastic x-mas tree instead of a real one, if you use it more than 5 years it is better for the environment (both energy and basic materials wise).
Use geothermal energy / heat pumps.. preferable in combination with solar panels and a Tesla..

get rid of all fuel burning power-plants, go nuclear, the only solution to provide a reduction in CO2 and increase the production of the required electricity.

These are only a few good starts,

more can be done with growing food in the lab instead of on the field...saves water / resources / space, limits CO2 and NOx, antibiotics pesticides etc. etc.
Until then: Do NOT buy biological food, this is inefficient use of land and water, commodities that are getting hard to come by.

more can be done by growing cotton / fibers in the lab, no more enormous sweet (drinking) water consumption by cotton fields and ruining the land.
Buy clothes from recycled plastic...

I am just saying... there are possibilities...
Plane can be replaced by hyper-loops... Zeppelins (with solar cells and batteries) if hyper-loop goes too fast :lol: :lol:

Lots of work can be done by teleworking and video calls, this would eliminate 30% of all air travel. (arbitrary number without proof :P it's the idea that counts... ).


We are at a new dawn of existence, change now and flourish, or stay behind and parish... 8)
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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:38 pm

Hi Upphew!
Upphew wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:40 am
And she only wants people to listen to experts, not her...
Not just that one. I don't buy the hysterical !"#¤%! These ones want to listen to *one side* of the expertise that supports their built-up mindset to create a cause. BTW, I always challenge this: Which scientists are we talking about? And what discipline of science says that one must be honest in their approach and findings Largely spoken, on this topic their are four categories,

1) those that are creating hysteria (very few scientists or scientific minds in there, more theatrical arses in there)

2) those that acknowledge a significant issue (some scientists are there)

3) those that acknowledge an potential issue (majority are here)

4) those that acknowledge a cyclical issue of warming and cooling (quite many here)

5) those that negate the issue completely (quite a number here as well, and many of them are from numbers 3) and 4) as well, i.e. multiple possibilities position)

Guess which ones are the loudest and those are the ones that don't want to even acknowledge the scientific arguments of 3), 4), and 5). :evil:

Upphew wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:40 am
I think people should conduct their business in a way that doesn't piss on other people's ankles.
Fair! I agree. :D But it has to be both ways. But when these hysterical idiots want to put their hands in my pocket and fondle my, ahem, money for their stupidity... My view is this: You want to be hysterical, go ahead, don't scream in my ears, and you are not entitled to put your hands in my pocket either - those are the rewards of my labour.

Upphew wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:40 am
I think many of those who moan about flying or meat don't have to stop using them... they already did.
And that is great. I did not tell them to, but I don't want them tell me what to do either. Live and let live - as the saying goes.
Upphew wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:40 am
milk in a bottle, there is none available. The refillable glass bottles (bulk of them would have been beer) seem to have disappeared. Now that I put plastics in different bin, I can see that the plastic packaging makes up nearly all my trash. Can you even buy most of the food items without plastic packaging?
I am told that a lot of the small plastics are not recyclable. I'll be honest, I am NOT 100% sure about this. These include, e.g. the small thin containers of yogurt, those small cheese packaging etc. Any ideas?
Piet wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:04 am
... Buy plastic bottles, they cost less energy to produce, make sure to recycle them...
... Buy a plastic x-mas tree instead of a real one, if you use it more than 5 years it is better for the environment (both energy and basic materials wise)...
Nope, they don't! Wasn't there the study that plastics actually cost more? Much of today’s plastic is man-made and largely dependent upon fossil fuels [video].

BTW, when I was young, we fetched milk in steel jugs and bottles. The kinds that are now making a fancy comeback, you find them all over the place. Wash, rinse, re-use, even at home!
Piet wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:04 am
more "pantti" on all plastics will help there.
How exactly? Pantti makes sure you return the plastics to a recycling point so you get your money back. So, Pantti as such does not help. Why? You think if majority of the plastics were recyclable, they wouldn't be already doing it? Seriously?
Piet wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:04 am
Use geothermal energy / heat pumps.. preferable in combination with solar panels and a Tesla..
OK! You think solar would work year around in Finland? Tesla, seriously? Where do you think they are going to get the material for the batteries from? Earlier mining and drilling for fossil fuels, now mining for lithium and related. Either ways, they destroy the planet. So, one needs to destroy the earth to get fossil fuels for the production, and then destroy the earth again for the operative material! Brilliant. As I said, most people in category 1!
Piet wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:04 am
get rid of all fuel burning power-plants, go nuclear, the only solution to provide a reduction in CO2 and increase the production of the required electricity.
And what do you do with the nuclear waste please? [Germany's case here] And Chernobyl and Fukushima? :roll:
Piet wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:04 am
"some say give me tax for driving, the other says I'll tax you for flying, third says I'll tax you for eating meat, another says I'll tax you for sugar, another says I'll tax you for drinking alcohol."
Nice one, this would be a good START.
And where do you think they will stop? Every person will have their own cause, a billion causes to pull money from other wallets! I once pulled a vegan into one-way dialogue - in India. He always ridiculed people that ate meat. But in due time his own child had a medical problem, tests revealed his child was literally not growing due to the lack of proteins and iron, he was not absorbing well from the vegan diet or the vegan supplements. And so, they broke rules. As as Upphew said, I shouldn't be pissing on others ankles... and I understand that, but no, I don't let go. You can guess the follow-up one-way-discussion! This is how I define hypocrisy!
Piet wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:04 am
Buy clothes from recycled plastic...
Eh!
Piet wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:04 am
Lots of work can be done by teleworking and video calls, this would eliminate 30% of all air travel.
See my first post. In almost all countries, even for small businesses, expenses on business related travel and deductible expenses. So, I doubt that would bring the bar up!
Piet wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:04 am
We are at a new dawn of existence, change now and flourish, or stay behind and parish... 8)
I guess you meant "perish"... sure with the kind of intelligent arguments up here... naturally natural intelligence will definitely perish!
Yep, it is! What's the big deal?

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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by Upphew » Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:01 pm

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:38 pm
4) those that acknowledge a cyclical issue of warming and cooling (quite many here)

5) those that negate the issue completely (quite a number here as well, and many of them are from numbers 3) and 4) as well, i.e. multiple possibilities position)
It might be a lot to ask, but do you have any names or studies to check in those categories? I think I'm more willing to believe the first categories stuff, but I'm also willing to read stuff from the categories 4 and 5. But I'm not willing to dig them up myself.
suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:38 pm
Upphew wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:40 am
I think people should conduct their business in a way that doesn't piss on other people's ankles.
Fair! I agree. :D But it has to be both ways. But when these hysterical idiots want to put their hands in my pocket and fondle my, ahem, money for their stupidity... My view is this: You want to be hysterical, go ahead, don't scream in my ears, and you are not entitled to put your hands in my pocket either - those are the rewards of my labour.
Yeah, the pocket fondling sucks (not in the good way). There are already a lot of fingers in my pockets.

I think that hysteria started as polite "don't pee on my ankles" didn't do anything, so they resort now to screaming.
suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 12:38 pm
Upphew wrote:
Mon Dec 02, 2019 10:40 am
milk in a bottle, there is none available. The refillable glass bottles (bulk of them would have been beer) seem to have disappeared. Now that I put plastics in different bin, I can see that the plastic packaging makes up nearly all my trash. Can you even buy most of the food items without plastic packaging?
I am told that a lot of the small plastics are not recyclable. I'll be honest, I am NOT 100% sure about this. These include, e.g. the small thin containers of yogurt, those small cheese packaging etc. Any ideas?
Recycled to energy afaik. And collected separately at least in my housing coop and have separate bins in recycling points too.
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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:30 pm

Upphew wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:01 pm
studies to check in those categories?
A list below BUT beforehand: there are two things here:

1. With statistics and "data" you can prove anything, a one-ended stick or a square circle. You can prove things and state things as probable. Both sides of the argument exist.

2. Most scientists are not media friendly as such, so names are in the articles and citations. I list some here, you can access most of them open, some of them you need university library access.

Cophenhagen Consensus Centre, Project Syndicate 2006. Published in several international newspapers including: The Shanghai Daily (China), The Guardian (UK), Zaman (Turkey), New York Sun (US), La Tercera (Chile)


Framing Climate Change, A comparative study investigates news coverage of climate change in the United States and Sweden

Climate confusion...

Nature Climate Change volume 2, pages 732–735(2012)

University of Liverpool, Gavin

Aston University, Birgimham

For a simpler critique, a media retort, here's one

Internet Article based, newsgeography

Sagepub, University of Colorado, Boulder, CO, USA

Sagepub, University of Toronto at Scarborough

Sagepub, University of New South Wales

The key point I am against is the hysteria and the excuse to dig into my pockets. As I have always said, mankind is responsible for damaging the earth as such, we mess it up. But to say that I am to blame, and sticking their fingers down my pocket justifies violence against me, and that I will not stand for!
Yep, it is! What's the big deal?

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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:32 pm

PS. It's like the governments screaming bloody murder over smoking and alcohol, as far as I have read, smoking does not have good effects, and supposedly alcohol does. So, why not just ban it? Oh, but I need the taxes. That's the crux of the issue. :twisted:
Yep, it is! What's the big deal?

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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by Upphew » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:23 pm

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:32 pm
PS. It's like the governments screaming bloody murder over smoking and alcohol, as far as I have read, smoking does not have good effects, and supposedly alcohol does. So, why not just ban it? Oh, but I need the taxes. That's the crux of the issue. :twisted:
Banning doesn't do very good job ending something. Prohibition as an example. Our current tobacco laws have worked quite well, if one looks at the percentage of smokers. And current law states quite well what is the intention of the law: to end the use of tobacco products ( https://www.finlex.fi/en/laki/kaannokse ... 161374.pdf ). I think we are getting close to the situation where the costs of smoking and tax income are equal. And if and when popularity of smoking declines the tax income will be again less than the costs for sure.
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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by Upphew » Tue Dec 03, 2019 4:46 pm

suomynona.yllatot wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 3:30 pm
Upphew wrote:
Tue Dec 03, 2019 2:01 pm
studies to check in those categories?
A list below BUT beforehand: there are two things here:

1. With statistics and "data" you can prove anything, a one-ended stick or a square circle. You can prove things and state things as probable. Both sides of the argument exist.

2. Most scientists are not media friendly as such, so names are in the articles and citations. I list some here, you can access most of them open, some of them you need university library access.
1. lies, damn lies, statistics
2. Names were just for me to check their work and while I enjoy media friendly scientists, it is true that most of them aren't. I'll check your links that won't need university library access :)

edit. and maybe some needing library access as they can be usually found easily with google.
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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by Upphew » Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:26 pm

Thanks for the links. I've checked few of them and they were not what I was expecting. I should have read your comment better though, as I didn't put much weight on the hysteria bit. And your list seems to be heavy with hysteria and media, not climate change.

For me it seems that most scientists that deal with weather agree with rising temperatures and that they are result of human activity and we should do something to it. Roy Spencer seems to be exception. But I do agree with him that if you put price tag to doing something... better leave it to future generations to deal with is the mentality of most people.
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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by Piet » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am

Without starting to go nitpicking over a spelling check forced mistake, and dissecting the in general clear written opinion of our other posters here, I would like to point out 2 specific things in particular... here.

Before I do that, please keep in mind that in this thread, these opinions of everyone are shaped by each individual poster's access to information and the correctness of this information, hence this is also open to debate, there is no point in saying one is wrong and the other is not, most likely everyone is partially wrong and right.

About plastics and vegetarian food.

First: Above it was argued (by me and the poster with the long name :lol: ) that plastic could be better or worse than glass. As said both are right and both are wrong, it all depends on the level of recycling. Keep in mind that glass can only be recycled into one form, into glass again, plastic has more applications. Glass is more fragile and heavier so more energy is used for transport. In general Food stays (longer) better in plastic than in glass, therefore less wasted food. Plastic can be shaped in more usable forms than glass. There are fully Bio degradable plastics available (PLA bottle degrades for 80% in a few months when left in the forest) that are actually a material of preference in 3D-printing in the local library for example. 3D printing of plastic is available to all home users, glass not so much.
To give an example: I printed spare parts for my 25 year old car that were not available on the market any-more, so I did not need to buy a new car and add waste to the environment. (next step is reprogram the ECU so it runs on Ethanol to make it more BIO responsible). With glass this would not have been possible.
That said, a plastic bottle does not necessarily need to become a bottle again, a glass bottle most likely will have only one new application: a glass bottle.
All depends on the amount of recycling of the plastic, therefore levying all plastic with "pantti" (not only bottles but also the fender of your car or the light switch in your wall) would greatly encourage users to return plastic to a recycling point.

Basically you can say that plastic is a magic invention that can do a lot of good for the environment, if the dumb F*cking idiots that humans are, would understand the need of recycling it.

Second: Vegetarian food: it is argued that vegetarian food will not provide all nutrients for a young growing human, this is (as being a university educated biologist myself) a misconception. It is however much more difficult / impossible to sustain a healthy way of life, without the proper knowledge of where to get your nutrients from, which is the case of the indian boy told above. Please remember the same was true for the Indians long time ago when eating only white rice instead of brown rice, vitamine B deficiency (beriberi) was a common illness those days..

I have several friends that are and have been vegetarian since birth, they are all very healthy and have good university degrees, all (those friends) are over 40 yrs old now.

Basically the meat production is unsustainable, so human kind will be forced to change it's diet soon anyway... so enjoy your steak for now, it will not last. when it comes to that, I will have a problem for sure hence my medical condition gives me an allergy for a certain protein from peas, sadly these proteins are widely used in vegetarian food.
I had this conversation with someone just last week, this person is a researcher for a well known Finnish Science research facility, he told me that the expected complete collapse of the USA meat industry will happen in about 5 years. I found this shocking, no more cheese burgers or double woppers with cheese. However knowing his expertise, I have no reason to doubt his knowledge about this.



So again, someone already said so, there are lies, big lies and then there are statistics.
There is no point in trying to convince others here on this forum or even this thread, hence people's brains have the tendency to ignore scientific proof if it does not fit their believes. (that would include me yes... :wink: )

It all comes down to the following: we humans ruined this planet for money and now we should clean up our mess also with our money. How... that is continuing discussion and field of science for the now graduating scientists and the older politicians that need to fund them.

Humans should start to use their brains and stop building graphite moderated nuclear power plants (tjernobyl) or building them at the shoreline of a see in a typhoon / earth quake area without the proper safety measures (fukushima)..etc. stupid mistakes and trying to hide them (Sellafield). for more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... by_country

As said, the only way humans can reach the CO2 emission goals is by going all nuclear... and indeed waste management will be the biggest challenge on that one. But look at the bright side, the waste will eventually be gone because it has a halflife (some low energetic waste however has a half life of millions of years), CO2 doesn't H2S doesn't NOx doesn't, dioxines don't etc.

That said, nuclear power has killed (due to the accident in tjernobyl) about 4000 people until now, this is way way less than all deaths (until now and to come) related to other power plants, so the jury is still out on that one..

But on topic, yeah tax the hell out of everything expensive (flying) and lower the tax on my bread and cheese :ochesey:
Oh and most other countries already have a fly tax...so why not in Finland... :thumbsup:
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Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Thu Dec 05, 2019 3:58 pm

Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
Without starting to go nitpicking over a spelling check forced mistake, and dissecting the in general clear written opinion of our other posters here,
Cheesy lines and slogans get the respect they deserve! Sorry!

Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
... I would like to point out 2 specific things in particular... here...

... dissecting the in general clear written opinion of our other posters here...
I am not sure what the two points were, but it certainly is hard to segregate the sound from the noise. Clear, written, opinion, er... :roll:
Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
Before I do that, please keep in mind that in this thread, these opinions of everyone are shaped by each individual poster's access to information and the correctness of this information,
Please read what you write above, and if you did not get it. In saying that " opinions of everyone are shaped by each individual poster's access to information and the correctness of this information,"You are basically saying that uninformed opinions count - as what exactly?
Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
hence this is also open to debate,
Debate? Debates are formed on factual statements, premises, figures, or sound and logical reasoning that are fashioned into tight well-formed arguments. NOT outright fallacies and emotions.
Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
... there is no point in saying one is wrong and the other is not, most likely everyone is partially wrong and right....

... As said both are right and both are wrong...
Ouch! Not the brightest bulb in the room! Read above what constitutes a well-formed debate.
Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
... plastic could be better or worse than glass...
Plastic vs. glass was NOT the point. The point was a large amount of the plastic is materially not recyclable, burnt, and release harmful gases, including CO2. The hysterical media does not point to these issues, but takes on one topic, as a pretext to pull out money and tax the common man.
Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
Second: Vegetarian food: it is argued that vegetarian food will not provide all nutrients
Again, NOT the point. The point was hypocrisy! Eat what you want. Let me eat what I want. :roll:
Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
for a young growing human, this is (as being a university educated biologist myself)
That's nice my friend, university education biologist with compost to fertilize the thought process?
Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
I have several friends that are and have been vegetarian since birth, they are all very healthy and have good university degrees, all (those friends) are over 40 yrs old now.
I could not find the emoji/ icon for a fused bulb.
Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
Basically the meat production is unsustainable, so human kind will be forced to change it's diet soon anyway... so enjoy your steak for now, it will not last. when it comes to that, I will have a problem for sure hence my medical condition gives me an allergy for a certain protein from peas, sadly these proteins are widely used in vegetarian food.
I had this conversation with someone just last week, this person is a researcher for a well known Finnish Science research facility, he told me that the expected complete collapse of the USA meat industry will happen in about 5 years. I found this shocking, no more cheese burgers or double woppers with cheese. However knowing his expertise, I have no reason to doubt his knowledge about this.
Sure, of course, he may be right. And maybe you are right, he may have degrees in thaumaturgy and necromancy which of course will support the case. Or he could also be a well informed hysterical media spokesperson. Of course, if he has the degree, and is a 16-year old media spokesperson, it is all the reason for me to stockpile meat for the next 10 years, and that makes me very worried.
Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
It all comes down to the following: we humans ruined this planet for money and now we should clean up our mess also with our money.
You might have a good career in politics.

No, not everybody designed the mess up the planet, few did more than the others. The few are the top grade business persons and pol1-sh!t1ans with the sole aim of maximizing profit - their profit, at the expense of the others. Now, they keep digging into my pockets to fill theirs. You think any flight-shame tax will be used for the earth? Büllsh!t.

Even toilet paper destroys the earth - read the earlier post I made about it. The new fangled idea to make goods out of "renewable" wood kills the planet too.

I think I wrote about this earlier. At the mall of Tripla, there is a shop, selling almost everything made of renewable material. I had only 3 questions:
1- Did you not cut down trees to get this wood.
2- After all these chemical and processing of the wood, does it still decay like normal and return to soil?
3- What else the manufacturing process is renewable? The fuel? Electricity? Machines? The lady did not want to answer.
Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
How... that is continuing discussion and field of science for the now graduating scientists and the older politicians that need to fund them.
Sure, people that want to fund can do so. You cannot force me to work, and then force me to give away the produce of my labour for free under pretexts.
Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
Humans should start to use their brains and stop building graphite moderated nuclear power plants (tjernobyl) or building them at the shoreline of a see in a typhoon / earth quake area without the proper safety measures (fukushima)..etc. stupid mistakes and trying to hide them (Sellafield). for more info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... by_country

As said, the only way humans can reach the CO2 emission goals is by going all nuclear... and indeed waste management will be the biggest challenge on that one. But look at the bright side, the waste will eventually be gone because it has a halflife (some low energetic waste however has a half life of millions of years), CO2 doesn't H2S doesn't NOx doesn't, dioxines don't etc.
I agree on this one point. Along with nuclear, all the Teslas etc. is doing to destroy the earth, and I am not sure if the earth can rejuvenate in due time.
Piet wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:17 am
But on topic, yeah tax the hell out of everything expensive (flying) and lower the tax on my bread and cheese :ochesey:
Oh and most other countries already have a fly tax...so why not in Finland... :thumbsup:
As I said, I asked a question: Where do you think they will stop? Certainly aren't the brightest bulb!

I once had a discussion with a greens member when she eagerly suggested that she would be happy if 100% of the people used public transport, and that the government would make public transport available. My rebuttal was simple:

What do you think will happen when 100% of the population uses public transport? Who will pay the road taxes, the fuel taxes, the yearly car tax? What do you think will happen to the people dependent on the industry, car sales business, car-salesmen, mechanics, the katasastus (yearly check), what is the financial impact? Even for public transport, who will pay for the roads and maintenance? If the roads are bad, how do you expect the emergency services to get to you?

And once all these losses are in place, will the monthly public transport prices remain the same? If not, I'd be paying about 300e for a monthly transport pass? Seriously? When I could have used that to drive my own car point-to-point? That was my rebuttal. My remark was far less polite.

The zest for taxes despite rational and reasoning seem to be the thoughts, products of incestuous brain cells. Foreign farmers cells might be good.

Taxation, nations, nationalism they've become a self perpetuating bean-counting modern-day-slave-industry - saying it very subtly!
Yep, it is! What's the big deal?

suomynona.yllatot
Posts: 78
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2013 1:38 pm

Re: Guess the initiative that will pass eagerly, the flying tax!

Post by suomynona.yllatot » Thu Dec 05, 2019 4:25 pm

Upphew wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:26 pm
Thanks for the links. I've checked few of them and they were not what I was expecting. I should have read your comment better though, as I didn't put much weight on the hysteria bit. And your list seems to be heavy with hysteria and media, not climate change.

For me it seems that most scientists that deal with weather agree with rising temperatures and that they are result of human activity and we should do something to it. Roy Spencer seems to be exception. But I do agree with him that if you put price tag to doing something... better leave it to future generations to deal with is the mentality of most people.
Hi Upphew, did you mean the deniers and the myth part? I haven't necessarily researched them in great detail, but from what I have read they do have some solid arguments as well. But mostly, the clear thing is the hysteria created and the pretext to tax everything for a common benefit whereas.

Here are two videos and then other material from universities.

video 1

video 2

My view is that there is a large part of the mess made by greed. And this does not stop at climate.

Other material

ProQuest, The Myth of 'Environmental Catastrophism'

Upphew wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 1:26 pm
For me it seems that most scientists that deal with weather agree with rising temperatures and that they are result of human activity and we should do something to it. Roy Spencer seems to be exception. But I do agree with him that if you put price tag to doing something... better leave it to future generations to deal with is the mentality of most people.
I may not have a problem with, "let's do something sensible together". But I draw the line at "you do something". And give me money so I'll do something that has no visible output.

My example with the Mall of Tripla is a good one (in my opinion, IMVHO). :D

Catch point: they are cashing on it, let's claim, this is *all* renewable. Let's try and not say that we

a) cut down healthy trees,
b) the wood is chemically treated, so it is not natural nor easily absorbed back into the earth, nor can it be burned without chemical residue,
c) let's not pay attention to the fact that everything else but the raw material is actually one-way-or-the-other dependent and using fossil fuels.
Yep, it is! What's the big deal?


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