Citizenship Application 2023

[RandomDude]

Switching to the seventeenth month of waiting, queue number 193x, stage 1

Due to any special reason?

I wish I could know

[mamutti]

Work to draft the citizenship knowledge test has begun: https://yle.fi/a/74-20041800 (in English) and https://yle.fi/a/74-20041566 (suomeksi).

I wouldn't expect the test to be finalized quickly, as there's bound to be some discussion about the questions themselves. Still, this shows that Finland is moving to align its citizenship practices with those of other countries with similar tests in place.

Remains to be seen when the test becomes mandatory. I wonder if they'll be revamping YKI as well?

Hopefully, they are not going to ask us to complete the test while we are waiting for our citizenship, because some of us might be waiting even 28 months for that, so the rules can change a lot before that

[astrom]

Work to draft the citizenship knowledge test has begun: https://yle.fi/a/74-20041800 (in English) and https://yle.fi/a/74-20041566 (suomeksi).

I wouldn't expect the test to be finalized quickly, as there's bound to be some discussion about the questions themselves. Still, this shows that Finland is moving to align its citizenship practices with those of other countries with similar tests in place.

Remains to be seen when the test becomes mandatory. I wonder if they'll be revamping YKI as well?

Hopefully, they are not going to ask us to complete the test while we are waiting for our citizenship, because some of us might be waiting even 28 months for that, so the rules can change a lot before that

No worries about it. As it has been mentioned before on this topic: the retroactive application of a new law is extremely problematic from a legal point of view. When you have a society based on the rule of law, it is almost impossible to suddenly change the rules of the game when public power is exercised with administrative procedures that started on previously valid regulations. In this case, Migri exercises public power when granting rights of residency and citizenship based on a valid law at the time we all applied.

Just imagine the amount of chaos that society could be induced if all of sudden the conditions of the game are no longer what they were at the time someone applied or requested a procedure from a public authority. That would no longer be a proper feature of a country ruled by the empire of law, but rather a highly uncertain society where today could be X but tomorrow could be Z if that would be the will of politicians in turn.

Also, retroactive application of the laws is extensively prohibited by international treaties and EU regulations that Finland has been committed to fulfill and respect for both, criminal and civil laws. SO PLEASE people, I know it is hard to not feel anxious about this ongoing discussion in the media, but try to have some calmness and peace of mind when thinking about this kind of proposal impacting applications that are currently under the consideration of the authorities.

[MandieLynn]

Hey everyone, I just got a positive decision today! Previously, I was behind 3000+ applicants. So anything can happen with the processing timeline. Good luck to everyone else!

[leoamb]

No worries about it. As it has been mentioned before on this topic: the retroactive application of a new law is extremely problematic from a legal point of view. When you have a society based on the rule of law, it is almost impossible to suddenly change the rules of the game when public power is exercised with administrative procedures that started on previously valid regulations. In this case, Migri exercises public power when granting rights of residency and citizenship based on a valid law at the time we all applied.

Just imagine the amount of chaos that society could be induced if all of sudden the conditions of the game are no longer what they were at the time someone applied or requested a procedure from a public authority. That would no longer be a proper feature of a country ruled by the empire of law, but rather a highly uncertain society where today could be X but tomorrow could be Z if that would be the will of politicians in turn.

Also, retroactive application of the laws is extensively prohibited by international treaties and EU regulations that Finland has been committed to fulfill and respect for both, criminal and civil laws. SO PLEASE people, I know it is hard to not feel anxious about this ongoing discussion in the media, but try to have some calmness and peace of mind when thinking about this kind of proposal impacting applications that are currently under the consideration of the authorities.

This happened in Denmark before and they want to take similar steps here. In Denmark, the law was forced on pending applications as well. Also, notice that Migri itself mentioned that they don't know whether it would apply to pending applications or not. So, the possibility is there.

[Guess.who]

Hey everyone, I just got a positive decision today! Previously, I was behind 3000+ applicants. So anything can happen with the processing timeline. Good luck to everyone else!

Congratulations!!! How many months did it take? What was your queue number initially when you made the application?

[Auringon_kukka]

Hey everyone, I just got a positive decision today! Previously, I was behind 3000+ applicants. So anything can happen with the processing timeline. Good luck to everyone else!

Congratulations, and on a Friday to boot

[astrom]

No worries about it. As it has been mentioned before on this topic: the retroactive application of a new law is extremely problematic from a legal point of view. When you have a society based on the rule of law, it is almost impossible to suddenly change the rules of the game when public power is exercised with administrative procedures that started on previously valid regulations. In this case, Migri exercises public power when granting rights of residency and citizenship based on a valid law at the time we all applied.

Just imagine the amount of chaos that society could be induced if all of sudden the conditions of the game are no longer what they were at the time someone applied or requested a procedure from a public authority. That would no longer be a proper feature of a country ruled by the empire of law, but rather a highly uncertain society where today could be X but tomorrow could be Z if that would be the will of politicians in turn.

Also, retroactive application of the laws is extensively prohibited by international treaties and EU regulations that Finland has been committed to fulfill and respect for both, criminal and civil laws. SO PLEASE people, I know it is hard to not feel anxious about this ongoing discussion in the media, but try to have some calmness and peace of mind when thinking about this kind of proposal impacting applications that are currently under the consideration of the authorities.

This happened in Denmark before and they want to take similar steps here. In Denmark, the law was forced on pending applications as well. Also, notice that Migri itself mentioned that they don't know whether it would apply to pending applications or not. So, the possibility is there.

Are you referring to the retroactive changes for permanent residence permits that passed in 2017? I got three pointers in regards of your comment:

1)The law was retroactive from the day that the bill was tabled to the Danish parliament (15th of March, 2017 or little less than two months from the day when it was finally approved and started its application, 4th of May, 2017) we are not talking about many months or years. Even the subsequent migratory reforms in Denmark no longer followed the retroactivity path. Consider also that this could become a solid case against the general principle of no-retroactivity in both, Finnish and European courts, if it would come to that. Right now the proposal is just a proposal, there is no further work on it and no formalities have yet passed to become a law, would be simply nuts to come in spring 2024 like, damn it we are now going to affect all current applications snd we dont care about what rules have applied for the last ~10 years in Finland.

2) The Danish migratory shift has a now over 20 years of consistent changes in the law and specially the attitude of society and all political parties -even the left wing. Let alone the fact that Denmark has a way different history and political background than Finland, which includes a now-critical of immigration monarchy.

3) Migri is in the position of applying the law, but not to speculate how it will be done. Therefore, it's reasonable to disclaim the responsibility over any kind of foreseeable proposals from the current government coalition by referring that changes may come. When and how, they will inform the parties in case it would come as a retroactive law. Which sounds like a lovely hand washing atm.

Now we are getting a little out of topic but wanted to point at the complexity of making here in Finland what unfortunately has been the case with the Danes.

[leoamb]

Are you referring to the retroactive changes for permanent residence permits that passed in 2017? I got three pointers in regards of your comment:

1)The law was retroactive from the day that the bill was tabled to the Danish parliament (15th of March, 2017 or little less than two months from the day when it was finally approved and started its application, 4th of May, 2017) we are not talking about many months or years. Even the subsequent migratory reforms in Denmark no longer followed the retroactivity path. Consider also that this could become a solid case against the general principle of no-retroactivity in both, Finnish and European courts, if it would come to that. Right now the proposal is just a proposal, there is no further work on it and no formalities have yet passed to become a law, would be simply nuts to come in spring 2024 like, damn it we are now going to affect all current applications snd we dont care about what rules have applied for the last ~10 years in Finland.

2) The Danish migratory shift has a now over 20 years of consistent changes in the law and specially the attitude of society and all political parties -even the left wing. Let alone the fact that Denmark has a way different history and political background than Finland, which includes a now-critical of immigration monarchy.

3) Migri is in the position of applying the law, but not to speculate how it will be done. Therefore, it's reasonable to disclaim the responsibility over any kind of foreseeable proposals from the current government coalition by referring that changes may come. When and how, they will inform the parties in case it would come as a retroactive law. Which sounds like a lovely hand washing atm.

Now we are getting a little out of topic but wanted to point at the complexity of making here in Finland what unfortunately has been the case with the Danes.

Thank you for your reply. I was referring to the citizenship act that was forced about 2 years ago on the 10th of May 2021. The circulation letter to migration offices mentioned that it would apply to all applications for naturalization regardless of the time of submission. It might not be imaginable that they would do the same here but their comments for following the Danish footsteps are worrying.

[astrom]

Are you referring to the retroactive changes for permanent residence permits that passed in 2017? I got three pointers in regards of your comment:

1)The law was retroactive from the day that the bill was tabled to the Danish parliament (15th of March, 2017 or little less than two months from the day when it was finally approved and started its application, 4th of May, 2017) we are not talking about many months or years. Even the subsequent migratory reforms in Denmark no longer followed the retroactivity path. Consider also that this could become a solid case against the general principle of no-retroactivity in both, Finnish and European courts, if it would come to that. Right now the proposal is just a proposal, there is no further work on it and no formalities have yet passed to become a law, would be simply nuts to come in spring 2024 like, damn it we are now going to affect all current applications snd we dont care about what rules have applied for the last ~10 years in Finland.

2) The Danish migratory shift has a now over 20 years of consistent changes in the law and specially the attitude of society and all political parties -even the left wing. Let alone the fact that Denmark has a way different history and political background than Finland, which includes a now-critical of immigration monarchy.

3) Migri is in the position of applying the law, but not to speculate how it will be done. Therefore, it's reasonable to disclaim the responsibility over any kind of foreseeable proposals from the current government coalition by referring that changes may come. When and how, they will inform the parties in case it would come as a retroactive law. Which sounds like a lovely hand washing atm.

Now we are getting a little out of topic but wanted to point at the complexity of making here in Finland what unfortunately has been the case with the Danes.

Thank you for your reply. I was referring to the citizenship act that was forced about 2 years ago on the 10th of May 2021. The circulation letter to migration offices mentioned that it would apply to all applications for naturalization regardless of the time of submission. It might not be imaginable that they would do the same here but their comments for following the Danish footsteps are worrying.

Thanks for your reply too! The case you mentioned has been actually backtracked by the government:

http://refugees.dk/en/news/2021/april/r ... ned-again/

"Applications already handed in before the deal was made will not have to meet the new work criteria, as the government announced originally."



The background of such decision its not hard to guess, from the legal perspective is extremely hard to enforce retroactive laws. It's scandalous when it's mentioned but enforcing it irl is very very difficult. Hope these clarifications give a little more of ease about this whole uncertain situation.

[leoamb]

Thanks for your reply too! The case you mentioned has been actually backtracked by the government:

http://refugees.dk/en/news/2021/april/r ... ned-again/

"Applications already handed in before the deal was made will not have to meet the new work criteria, as the government announced originally."



The background of such decision its not hard to guess, from the legal perspective is extremely hard to enforce retroactive laws. It's scandalous when it's mentioned but enforcing it irl is very very difficult. Hope these clarifications give a little more of ease about this whole uncertain situation.

Yes but this is regarding the new work criteria only.

For me, I think it would be hard for them here to do it that quickly or without a grace period at least. But if they do, it is what it is and I will act and plan my life accordingly.

[MandieLynn]

Hey everyone, I just got a positive decision today! Previously, I was behind 3000+ applicants. So anything can happen with the processing timeline. Good luck to everyone else!

Congratulations!!! How many months did it take? What was your queue number initially when you made the application?

From application to decision, it took almost exactly 1 year/12 months. I applied at the end of July 2022, went to visit Migri in September. When my application started processing I was behind 5000+ other applicants.

[MandieLynn]

Hey everyone, I just got a positive decision today! Previously, I was behind 3000+ applicants. So anything can happen with the processing timeline. Good luck to everyone else!

Congratulations, and on a Friday to boot

Thank you! I cried happy tears, and then celebrated with some ananas lonkero in the evening

[karhu86]

Hi, a question for people who have been for long time in stage 2, like me i have been for 3 month in this stupid processing: have anyone contacted them to ask wtf are they investigating? i tried to contact them but they said just wait! i came to finland with a permit and i have a national passport, shouldn't my identity be already checked?

[juls]

Indeed, I called on my 6th month of stage 2, they said the same, that the officer is probably busy at the moment, just wait, we will notify you asap if you get a decision... Now it is 8th (almost 9th) month of stage 2 for me, I recently sent them an email but still got no reply...

From this forum I got an idea maybe they're really waiting for something from my home country this long? Tho they asked some clarification documents from me in january, and haven't opened them still

Hi, a question for people who have been for long time in stage 2, like me i have been for 3 month in this stupid processing: have anyone contacted them to ask wtf are they investigating? i tried to contact them but they said just wait! i came to finland with a permit and i have a national passport, shouldn't my identity be already checked?