Murdochin kuuleminen.....

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Rob A.
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Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by Rob A. » Tue Jul 19, 2011 11:29 pm

OK...I'll try this, but I'm not sure it can be easily answer, other than, "That's just the way it is."....:D

A headline from today's Helsinki Sanomat:

Murdochin kuuleminen keskeytyi yllätyshyökkäykseen.

="Murdoch hearing interrupted by a surprise attack."
Literally:
"Hearing of Murdoch interrupted to surprise attack."

Keskeytyä is an intransitive verb so if we have an object it will be an indirect object. In this instance the illative case is used. But there seems to be no intuitive way that I could have "guessed" which case to use.

So my question is: Is there any way with this verb, keskeytyä...to have predicted that the illative case is required? The closest I can come is to think of alternate prepositional phrases that could be used in English ...."as a result of..."; ...."due to";..."because of..."

The uusikielemme article helps, but doesn't explain....:D



Murdochin kuuleminen.....

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David O.
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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by David O. » Wed Jul 20, 2011 10:04 am

Wow, that's interesting. I've never seen keskeytyä with illative before... I probably would have said yllätyshyökkäyksen takia.

One wonders if there's a parallel between keskeytyä yllätyshyökkäykseen and kuolla nälkään/syöpään/etc, which seems idiomatically similar...

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jahasjahas
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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by jahasjahas » Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:34 am

David O. wrote:Wow, that's interesting. I've never seen keskeytyä with illative before... I probably would have said yllätyshyökkäyksen takia.
It seemed a bit clunky to me too. "Yllätyshyökkäys keskeytti Murdochin kuulemisen" is what I would've said, but that changes the order of information in the headline.
One wonders if there's a parallel between keskeytyä yllätyshyökkäykseen and kuolla nälkään/syöpään/etc, which seems idiomatically similar...
I was thinking of "päättyi yllätyshyökkäykseen" which sounds more natural than keskeytyä.

Upphew
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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by Upphew » Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:55 pm

jahasjahas wrote:I was thinking of "päättyi yllätyshyökkäykseen" which sounds more natural than keskeytyä.
It's natural unless the hearing really continued after the incident. In which case it didn't end, it just got interrupted :)

This is one of those threads that really get me thinking about nuances in Finnish and after a while I'm confused and don't know if my first impression is correct or the result of logical reasoning or was there any logic at all... :roll:
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onkko
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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by onkko » Wed Jul 20, 2011 1:00 pm

Upphew wrote: This is one of those threads that really get me thinking about nuances in Finnish and after a while I'm confused and don't know if my first impression is correct or the result of logical reasoning or was there any logic at all... :roll:
Welcome to club, most of threads go way over my head "wtf is inessiivin kolmannen partisitiivin preesenseksen verbi" :lol:
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jahasjahas
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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by jahasjahas » Wed Jul 20, 2011 5:02 pm

Upphew wrote:It's natural unless the hearing really continued after the incident. In which case it didn't end, it just got interrupted :)
Well, obviously the meaning changes when we switch verbs. I was just pointing out that the illative sounds better with "päättyä".

Rob A.
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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by Rob A. » Thu Jul 21, 2011 1:20 am

Oh well...no consensus ... :wink:

I found a few other randomly selected headlines and using the illative seems to be typical, though not "mandatory"...

1. Sirkusesitys keskeytyi esiintyjän loukkaantumiseen Helsingin Kaupunginteatterissa.
="Circus show interrupted due to performer's injury in Helsinki's City Theatre."
Literally="Circus performance interrupted into performer's injury in ......"

2.Albertin ja Charlenen häämatka keskeytyi isyystesteihin?
="Albert and Charlene's [...I assume that's her name in English..??] honeymoon interrupted due to fatherhood tests?"
Literally="...interrupted into fatherhood tests?"

3. Lumilautakilpailu keskeytyi kilpailijan loukkaantumiseen Joensuun torilla.
="Snowboard contest interrupted due to competitor's injury at the Joensuu market."...[Aside: What a surprise...an injured snowboarder...Is that really news?... :wink: ]
Literally ...again "....interrupted into injury....."

But I also found this:

4. Jalkapallotapahtuma Porissa keskeytyi myrskyn vuoksi.
="Football event in Pori interrupted due to storm."
...This is the kind of construction I would have expected....

I also found this Youtube entry:

YouTube - Porsaita äidin oomme kaikki keskeytyi muslimin hyökkäykseen.

.... but didn't use it because I couldn't figure out what oomme means....I assume it's some sort of first person plural verb?

....and also while I'm here, I saw this word in a Viivi ja Wagner cartoon...

mäyräkoirallinen...literally it seems to mean "like a dachshund."...but I suspect there might be a colloquial use....something to do with beer....:D

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onkko
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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by onkko » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:12 am

Rob A. wrote: .... but didn't use it because I couldn't figure out what oomme means....I assume it's some sort of first person plural verb?
Oomme eli moomme eli me olemme
Rob A. wrote: ....and also while I'm here, I saw this word in a Viivi ja Wagner cartoon...

mäyräkoirallinen...literally it seems to mean "like a dachshund."...but I suspect there might be a colloquial use....something to do with beer....:D
Picture of mäyräkoira :)
Image
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Rob A.
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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by Rob A. » Thu Jul 21, 2011 2:16 am

onkko wrote:
Rob A. wrote: .... but didn't use it because I couldn't figure out what oomme means....I assume it's some sort of first person plural verb?
Oomme eli moomme eli me olemme
Rob A. wrote: ....and also while I'm here, I saw this word in a Viivi ja Wagner cartoon...

mäyräkoirallinen...literally it seems to mean "like a dachshund."...but I suspect there might be a colloquial use....something to do with beer....:D
Picture of mäyräkoira :)
Image
Kiitos...in English that would probably just be called a "twelve-pack".... :D

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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by Jukka Aho » Thu Jul 21, 2011 4:18 am

Rob A. wrote:Oh well...no consensus ... :wink:
I have no problem with “X keskeytyi Y:hyn”, although the more active “Y keskeytti X:n” is a viable alternative as well. Maybe you’d prefer one over the other based on how “active” or “passive” the nature of the interruption was... or how “active” or “passive” image of the nature of the interruption you want to create in the reader’s mind.

For example, “Myrsky keskeytti kilpailun” – there’s a “personified” weather event actively disturbing the course of competition – vs. “Kilpailu keskeytyi myrskyyn”, where the focus is on the competition and its interruption, the actual reason for that interruption only being secondary information.
Rob A. wrote:4. Jalkapallotapahtuma Porissa keskeytyi myrskyn vuoksi.
="Football event in Pori interrupted due to storm."
...This is the kind of construction I would have expected....
Well, that’s yet another way to say the same thing. :)
Rob A. wrote:Porsaita äidin oomme kaikki keskeytyi muslimin hyökkäykseen.
Porsaita äidin oomme kaikki” is a traditional, playful children’s Christmas song. (Curiously, the people singing it in the video, in a bit accented Finnish, appear to be Russian. Here’s a more native version, but it is apparently sung by very young kids so the performance is not very clear or polished...)
Rob A. wrote:....and also while I'm here, I saw this word in a Viivi ja Wagner cartoon...

mäyräkoirallinen...literally it seems to mean "like a dachshund."...but I suspect there might be a colloquial use....something to do with beer....:D
Mäyräkoira (“a dachshund”) is a colloquial, semi-jocular term used for referring to a long (2×6 arrangement) 12-pack of beer.

You didn’t provide a link to that cartoon but depending on the context, the word mäyräkoirallinen could refer to “a dachshundful [of beer]”... just like kupillinen means “a cupful [of some substance]”. The name of a container + -llinen roughly equals to “container+ful” in English. “Kupillinen kahvia” (“a cup[ful] of coffee”, “laatikollinen kirjoja” (“a box[ful] of books”), etc.

— Kuinka paljon tavaraa autossa vielä on? — Kaksi laatikollista.

— Kuinka paljon olet juonut olutta? — Vain yhden pullollisen!

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Pursuivant
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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by Pursuivant » Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:18 pm

how about a mäyräkatti? :wink:
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Something wicked this way comes."

Rob A.
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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by Rob A. » Thu Jul 21, 2011 10:44 pm

Pursuivant wrote:how about a mäyräkatti? :wink:
OK...time for a little language practice... :wink:

Monia kissoja tuntuvat pitää konttaavasta laatikkoihin ja toisia saartaneita paikkoja....Does anyone want to tell me if this is comprehensible or not? ...:D

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jahasjahas
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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by jahasjahas » Thu Jul 21, 2011 11:27 pm

Rob A. wrote:Monia kissoja tuntuvat pitää konttaavasta laatikkoihin ja toisia saartaneita paikkoja....Does anyone want to tell me if this is comprehensible or not? ...:D
"Monet kissat tuntuvat pitävän laatikoihin ja muihin ahtaisiin paikkoihin ryömimisestä."?

Only humans can kontata :wink:

CH
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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by CH » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:14 am

Jukka Aho wrote:— Kuinka paljon olet juonut olutta? — Vain yhden pullollisen!
The Viivi ja Wagner Rob was referring to was probably the following, and your example fits pretty well to it: :)
Image

Rob A.
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Re: Murdochin kuuleminen.....

Post by Rob A. » Fri Jul 22, 2011 12:31 am

jahasjahas wrote:
Rob A. wrote:Monia kissoja tuntuvat pitää konttaavasta laatikkoihin ja toisia saartaneita paikkoja....Does anyone want to tell me if this is comprehensible or not? ...:D
"Monet kissat tuntuvat pitävän laatikoihin ja muihin ahtaisiin paikkoihin ryömimisestä."?
Thanks... I didn't think using the partitive monia kissoja was right... I suppose I was thinking that because I was talking about "non-specific" cats, I needed the partitive case. but moni is an indefinite modifier.... sort of a non-specfic number of specific cats, so to speak... :wink:

And...of course, for grammatical consistency and "balance" I should have had my clause following ja in the illative as well....

I see you used the word, ahdas= "narrow"...I was thinking about the verbal participle "enclosed", but I couldn't find the Finnish equivalent of that word, though I didn't look too hard..
Only humans can kontata :wink:
Yeah..I thought that might be a possibility...:D


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